Prusty talks about his upcoming research on a podcast

[Osaca]

Is it confirmed peer reviewed and then rejected?

We don't know how far the paper got in the peer review process. Perhaps the editor instantly declined it, perhaps it was one of the reviewers, we don't know and shouldn't speculate.

All we know is that Prusty said that he would submit for publication, which if the journal would accept will upload a preprint. Only if it doesn't get accepted will he upload it to the Arvix. That is what he said.

And now it has been uploaded on the Arvix.

It's also not too unnormal that a paper is rejected at the first journal. Some journals have low acceptance rates. This paper will be published at some point in time, we don't have to worry about that. There's several journals with ME/CFS expertise, for example Scheibenbogen's most recent paper was reviewed by Maureen Hanson and Olli Polo and edited by Nuno Sepulveda. Perhaps he first wanted to go for a very well regarded microbiological journal and pushed his luck a bit too much at that journal, who knows. I'm not suprised that a paper with clear and influential errors is not published. Perhaps these errors are only due to them bringing the paper out asap instead of taking a year to writing everything down carefully.

I'm keen to see how things will look once the preprint is updated. People aren't dissapointed in the paper itself, people are dissapointed in the statements he made surrounding its release, which I can understand. There might still be a lot of analysis happening in the background, who knows.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Listening to this, he has two key ideas
1. the whole thing is caused by herpesvirus reactivation, rather than SARS persistence
2. the symptoms are caused by a "switch" which is the depletion of a key protein.

He says it's something we've never thought of. And it's a protein we can re-introduce, but it will be slow, not an overnight solution.

He didn't give much away, but he does say this:
"the bone marrow is the key because the source of the cells is the bone marrow"
idk, maybe this is about a protein deficiency in platelets, or b-cells, or monocytes?

Natural IGM is the deficiency, I know in this they use Gamma Globulin IVIG IV Immunoglobulin white blood cells from people. Natural IGM is already known in medicine, it is nothing new but has been overlooked

 

[Aidan Walsh]

We don't know how far the paper got in the peer review process. Perhaps the editor instantly declined it, perhaps it was one of the reviewers, we don't know and shouldn't speculate.

All we know is that Prusty said that he would submit for publication, which if the journal would accept will upload a preprint. Only if it doesn't get accepted will he upload it to the Arvix. That is what he said.

And now it has been uploaded on the Arvix.

It's also not too unnormal that a paper is rejected at the first journal. Some journals have low acceptance rates. This paper will be published at some point in time, we don't have to worry about that. There's several journals with ME/CFS expertise, for example Scheibenbogen's most recent paper was reviewed by Maureen Hanson and Olli Polo and edited by Nuno Sepulveda. Perhaps he first wanted to go for a very well regarded microbiological journal and pushed his luck a bit too much at that journal, who knows. I'm not suprised that a paper with clear and influential errors is not published. Perhaps these errors are only due to them bringing the paper out asap instead of taking a year to writing everything down carefully.

I'm keen to see how things will look once the preprint is updated. People aren't dissapointed in the paper itself, people are dissapointed in the statements he made surrounding its release, which I can understand. There might still be a lot of analysis happening in the background, who knows.

The pre-print is very very long Download the pdf its hard to read but is countless pages

 

[Aidan Walsh]

I believe it was accepted or we would not have seen a Pre Print, any editorial corrections are also up to the Journal Editor. They would either correct them with Prusty involved. I think it will be going through & natural IGM deficient will ring alarm bells so will Fibronectin which is also tied to kidney failures

 

[Aidan Walsh]

@keepontruckin - it's okay to post the reddit document as long as you post a link where it came from, or you could just post the link - would you do that so we could see it?

For natural IGM issues, one of the medicines they use is IV Gamma Globulin IVIG & which is not long-term like CVID or PID Common Variable Immune Deficiency & Primary Immune Deficiency

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Oh Rufous, don't you have enough to deal with already?! I'm sorry to hear this news.

this is wonderfully exciting.

even if It may not come thru, for me (having been sick for decades upon decades and now I have lymphoma (found out today)

So Sorry to hear this now Rufous, I went through stomach Cancer a tumor I am ok no evidence of recurrences... Is it non-Hodgkins Lymphoma? My nephew had this twice he is fully recovered now. What tests did they do on you was it a bone marrow? I wish you full complete answers & wellness soon you will be ok & look into anything natural as well, some work best

 

[Murph]

I had a look at the pre-print, here's my summary.

1. It has a lot of great authors, not just Prusty. Scheibenbogen and Naviaux are listed.

2. The paper includes a big study of long covid patients, a big study of mecfs patients and controls, and about four different laboratory experiments.

3. He finds that antibody response to herpes dUTPases correlates with illness. This implies, but does not prove, that latent or lingering herpesviruses cause the symptoms in some cases.

4. The findings are not perfectly strong. The antibodies to dUTPases are found to be higher in severe long covid and ME/CFS , but not in mild long covid. And the antibodies are absent in most patients, as the next chart shows:

i'm not in love with the way one of these 5 little plots has its labels slightly different to the rest. Raises questions about how the data and graphing software worked. But the data shown does match the words in the paper so hopefully it's not a big data screw-up.

5. They did some experiments in test tubes showing that when you expose cells to dUTPases the cells fuse their mitochondria together, and express more of the mitochondrial fusion enzyme. Joining up all the mitochondria is apparently a normal body response to some types of stress.

They also see evidence the mitochondria are sick and inefficient. This experiment hints at why lingering herpesviruses might make us sick and tired: they screw up our mitochondria.

6. IN another, smaller experiment they put immunoglobulins from mecfs patients in a test tube to see what they do to cells. These make the mitochondria fragment! (how doeds that gel with the above finding, I have no idea! Still, it's interesting. ) It's also as part of this experiment that they find the low levels of fibronectin in mecfs patients immune complexes.

7. Separately they found low iGm against fibronectin in severe mecfs patients, which started making alarm bells go off. And yet they found higher amounts of circulating fibronectin in long covid and mecfs patients. (This, incidentally, goes to show why supplementing sometimes doesn't work - the body can't always use things even if they're available)

8. Final fibronectin point: they found that people with lower autoantobodies against fibronectin were sicker in the long covid cohort, and after torturing the data a little bit, they found severe mecfs patients had lower autoantobodies against fibronectin too. (Autoantobodies against fibronectin seem to be the normal healthy kind of autoantibody, the ones that you need and which we usually never hear about but do apparently exist!).

In summary this paper is like a dump of all the work Prustry has been doing, containing a lot of useful hints that the problem is - at least partially - lingering herpesviruses. It mostly suggests avenues for further research rather than being a definitive path to a cure. Especially research on how fibronectin fits in.

However I guess antivirals would be the general idea, acknowledging that most antivirals can't touch latent infections.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

We don't know how far the paper got in the peer review process. Perhaps the editor instantly declined it, perhaps it was one of the reviewers, we don't know and shouldn't speculate.

All we know is that Prusty said that he would submit for publication, which if the journal would accept will upload a preprint. Only if it doesn't get accepted will he upload it to the Arvix. That is what he said.

And now it has been uploaded on the Arvix.

It's also not too unnormal that a paper is rejected at the first journal. Some journals have low acceptance rates. This paper will be published at some point in time, we don't have to worry about that. There's several journals with ME/CFS expertise, for example Scheibenbogen's most recent paper was reviewed by Maureen Hanson and Olli Polo and edited by Nuno Sepulveda. Perhaps he first wanted to go for a very well regarded microbiological journal and pushed his luck a bit too much at that journal, who knows. I'm not suprised that a paper with clear and influential errors is not published. Perhaps these errors are only due to them bringing the paper out asap instead of taking a year to writing everything down carefully.

I'm keen to see how things will look once the preprint is updated. People aren't dissapointed in the paper itself, people are dissapointed in the statements he made surrounding its release, which I can understand. There might still be a lot of analysis happening in the background, who knows.

I never thought he was coming out with also an ME/CFS link I thought he said Long Covid all along only on Twitter, I was totally shocked to see the both on the Pre Print & he mentions the protein I think IFN

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So Sorry to hear this now Rufous, I went through stomach Cancer a tumor I am ok no evidence of recurrences... Is it non-Hodgkins Lymphoma?

thank you!... yes NHL and fortunately its low grade and so for now, its just keeping an eye on it.

Right.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

What tests did they do on you was it a bone marrow?

they did some blood tests and Pet/Cat scan; nothing too extreme for now...

 

[Osaca]

I believe it was accepted or we would not have seen a Pre Print, any editorial corrections are also up to the Journal Editor. They would either correct them with Prusty involved. I think it will be going through & natural IGM deficient will ring alarm bells so will Fibronectin which is also tied to kidney failures.

He himself said that if it would be accepted the journal would upload a preprint to their own repository and if it wasn't accepted they would submit to the Arvix. Those are his own words, not mine.

It's become apparent that there is still some work going on it the background in terms of data analysis. The recent graph he posted on Twitter is not part of the preprint nor are the patient cohorts described, part of the preprint. So I'm expecting them to do some little updates and then submit to the next journal or that they've done some updates already and have submitted to the next journal. Of course corrections are usually up to the editor, but even more so due to the reviewers, but given that they brought this work out so quickly it's quite common that there's some things that they still want to change themselves. Once changes are made one usually also updates these on the Arvix eventually, but it's not a priority and with so many authors on the preprint it's also very possible that we won't see any updates until the paper is published (which can take a year).

 

[Rebecca under the papyrus]

5. They did some experiments in test tubes showing that when you expose cells to dUTPases the cells fuse their mitochondria together, and express more of the mitochondrial fusion enzyme. Joining up all the mitochondria is apparently a normal body response to some types of stress.

They also see evidence the mitochondria are sick and inefficient. This experiment hints at why lingering herpesviruses might make us sick and tired: they screw up our mitochondria.

6. IN another, smaller experiment they put immunoglobulins from mecfs patients in a test tube to see what they do to cells. These make the mitochondria fragment! (how doeds that gel with the above finding, I have no idea! Still, it's interesting. ) It's also as part of this experiment that they find the low levels of fibronectin in mecfs patients immune complexes.

If I may offer a slight change: Mitochondrial fusion happened when the cells expressed EBV dUTPase. When the cells were exposed to it from the OUTSIDE their mitochondrias fragmented (as they did in response to the severe-ME-IgG).

 

[Rebecca under the papyrus]

I find some results quite interesting as new information. It's nice to see nIgM and fibronectin confirmed as having their roles in this chronic disease, too. But I am not sure if an immunologist would be very surprised by that.
And I find some of his interpretations overly optimistic based on that data.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

they did some blood tests and Pet/Cat scan; nothing too extreme for now...

Early stages, but numerous people are well with this now, an example my nephew now manually runs a Moving company doing all the Office & work as well, so Yes one can get well God bless you Rufous keep me posted on everything. I have a feeling something else is going on with me as well, it could be this as well

 

[Aidan Walsh]

thank you!... yes NHL and fortunately its low grade and so for now, its just keeping an eye on it.

Right.

Look up also a condition called KFD some with Lymphoma could have this instead they can mimic each other.

There is a story of a Man on biomedcentral.com the title was A White Man with Kikuchi-Fujimoto Disease mimicking Lymphoma, I also saw a video online on YouTube a young Woman going everywhere for a diagnosis she ended up seeing a very rare disease specialist he diagnosed her with KFD I will try to find this video.

Are you in the UK or USA? Sometimes YouTube won't come up in the USA from the UK it was an American video that may have been on the Mystery Diagnosis Channel link

 

[Vlad83]

It's nice to see nIgM and fibronectin confirmed as having their roles in this chronic disease, too. But I am not sure if an immunologist would be very surprised by that.

But I've never heard of anyone talking about it, or using IgM enriched IVIG. This may turn out to be an effective therapy.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

does anyone know why?

Prusty has reported on mitochondria fragmenting.

And now he demonstrated hyper coagulation.

Are both occurring?

 

[Dude]

New Video with a good explanation

 

[bigtiired]

I follow reddit.com/r/herpesCureResearch seems like for HSV1 & HSV2 we are still a few years out from a "functional" cure (lots of debate if it is 5 or 10). Along with the functional cure, there is a grassroots user-funded gene editing approach for a "total" cure. The good news is that there is stuff in the pipeline!

Along with that, it looks like there are a few mRNA vaccines in the pipeline, this one for already infected people! https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05831111

I wonder in 5-10 years with EBV and HSV 1 &2 squashed if we will still be following this path, as I know there are many other herpes viruses that infect us HHV-6, CMV, etc...

 

[keepontruckin]

The trials are taking place at 32 locations in the US only and the vaccine is for people who already have EBV. They started recruiting in April.