Professor Ron Davis's response to Naviaux study, including Q and A with Dr Naviaux

boohealth

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Hi @boohealth

Have you read the study? Or have you ruled it out based on one comment? I am genuinely curious.

Thanks,


B
Yes, and to me this is what's relevant: "suggesting a postexposure adaptation or mitocellular hormesis (38, 39) in response to pathologically persistent or recurrent cell danger signaling."

I think the recurrent cell danger signaling is due to ongoing infection. I think if you study lyme or even HIV that is under control on ARVs, you will see how chronic infection creates ongoing inflammation.
I think the hit and run idea is possible but the insignficant minority.
Look at Ebola--post Ebola syndrome. They know it's ongoing infection--they've found it sequestered later on in semen or the eyes.

Follow the money--they want to look at genes and metabolites. It is an interesting study in some respects, but I get really frustrated by the sloppiness in the quoted paragraph in my first post. There are enough people with serious lyme who were undertreated and when properly treated for months or years recover.

They are minimizing potential pathogens, because: follow the money.
 

alex3619

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I think you misunderstand me - I don't want to ask (or have others ask) OMF/Naviaux for individual advice. I want to know what kind of specialists in our local hospitals would know enough to interpret these tests and to be able to tackle some of the problems that they reveal.
I would be surprised if the entire hospital system in your state had even one doctor who could do this. Finding doctors, at this early stage of the research, is going to take persistence and effort.
 

Nielk

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I would be surprised if the entire hospital system in your state had even one doctor who could do this. Finding doctors, at this early stage of the research, is going to take persistence and effort.
So, how can these results be reliably evaluated? How do we know that this chemical signature is unique to what they consider CFS? Do people suffering from anorexia have these signature?
 

Gingergrrl

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They are minimizing potential pathogens, because: follow the money.

With all due respect (truly, and you were very helpful in some feedback that you gave me re: IVIG which I deeply appreciated), I do not believe that a study that Dr. Davis endorses has anything to do with following the money. He is literally trying to save his son's life and if he felt a study was flawed or inaccurate, he would be the first to say so. This is not about money for him.
 

duncan

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Even one in ten might be high. However, one in ten of a huge percentage of the population results in a very big number in absolute terms. Here I am talking about ME. Is there a link for a study looking at Lyme in particular?

Up to one in five Lyme patients, post IDSA-recommended treatments, reporting persistent symptoms is a widely acknowledged stat - I think even referred to in the 2006 IDSA Lyme Guidelines. Of course, there are ILADS experts who would put that estimate higher. It dates back to studies in the 80's, if I recall correctly.

At over 300,000 new Lyme case in the US alone each year, that's around 60,000 who aren't cured. I suspect a LARGE portion of these end up with a CFS diagnosis.

Now, also consider that 300,000 number mostly pertains to individuals who satisfy the CDC's 2T diagnostic criteria. There is a strong likelihood that many thousands are infected with Borrelia that fail the 2T, and are told they do not have Bb, and again, end up with CFS label.

And then there are the Lyme patients whose Lyme triggers the dauer condition ME/CFS.

Soooo, to underestimate or downplay the role of Lyme in ME/CFS could prove impractical.

I really suspect it was an inadvertent study observation. Regardless, as patients, it is the diagnostic value that concerns us here, and the validation - metabolically and otherwise - it represents as well.

The identity of what is behind the dauer state is, of course, undecided, but I do not think that was the main takeaway from this wonderful effort. It is the demonstrably organic and debilitating character of ME/CFS that these likely seminal, landmark findings will be heralded for.
 
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snowathlete

Senior Member
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UK
Yes, and to me this is what's relevant: "suggesting a postexposure adaptation or mitocellular hormesis (38, 39) in response to pathologically persistent or recurrent cell danger signaling."

I think the recurrent cell danger signaling is due to ongoing infection. I think if you study lyme or even HIV that is under control on ARVs, you will see how chronic infection creates ongoing inflammation.
I think the hit and run idea is possible but the insignficant minority.
Look at Ebola--post Ebola syndrome. They know it's ongoing infection--they've found it sequestered later on in semen or the eyes.

Follow the money--they want to look at genes and metabolites. It is an interesting study in some respects, but I get really frustrated by the sloppiness in the quoted paragraph in my first post. There are enough people with serious lyme who were undertreated and when properly treated for months or years recover.

They are minimizing potential pathogens, because: follow the money.

No issue at all with you having a view and expressing it nicely, but maybe you could get your point across without accusing researchers of having dodgy motives without any evidence to back those accusations up, or without suggesting that some really great research is sloppy just because it doesn't fit your pet theory. It's disrespectful and rude.
 

msf

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3,650
I´m starting to think that, just as any politics thread will end up as a discussion of the Nazis, any thread relating to infection will end up as a discussion of Lyme testing techniques.

Once again, I wanted to understand what Naviaux and Davis´s views are of the implications of this study for the persistent infection hypothesis in general, not for the Lyme or for the EBV hypothesis specifically.
 

Gingergrrl

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16,171
So would I, but the first step is knowing what specialism to even look within.

My guess is that this would be another issue that does not belong to any particular specialty versus an individual doctor having an interest in it. In the U.S. if you see an ME/CFS specialist, a dysautonomia specialist, an MCAS specialist, etc, they have come from a variety of medical and personal backgrounds that led them to this place.

So I think for this issue (Metabolomics) it could be an Internist, Immunologist, Endocrinologist, Infectious Disease (ID), or probably just about anyone who decides this is a worthy path to pursue.
 

Ben H

OMF Volunteer Correspondent
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U.K.
Yes, and to me this is what's relevant: "suggesting a postexposure adaptation or mitocellular hormesis (38, 39) in response to pathologically persistent or recurrent cell danger signaling."

I think the recurrent cell danger signaling is due to ongoing infection. I think if you study lyme or even HIV that is under control on ARVs, you will see how chronic infection creates ongoing inflammation.
I think the hit and run idea is possible but the insignficant minority.
Look at Ebola--post Ebola syndrome. They know it's ongoing infection--they've found it sequestered later on in semen or the eyes.

Follow the money--they want to look at genes and metabolites. It is an interesting study in some respects, but I get really frustrated by the sloppiness in the quoted paragraph in my first post. There are enough people with serious lyme who were undertreated and when properly treated for months or years recover.

They are minimizing potential pathogens, because: follow the money.

Hi @boohealth

So you are acknowledging a CDR mechanism, but not accepting the findings suggested by the study?

I have read Lyme literature extensively, for various reasons. It is not so far fetched-for myself- to believe that chronic lyme (a concept which I DO believe in, though my interpretation of what that means may be different to you) may be the result of a state very similar to ME/CFS metabolically. Without metabolism working correctly, and if chronic Lyme patients are in a similar dauer-state, how on earth is the immune system going to function optimally, keeping the infection in check?

Yes its a guess, a theory. That's all we can do right now. This was a study on ME/CFS, not on patients with Lyme. The cohort was from centres that are well known for treating Lyme disease, and the patients would have been ruled out-yes I realise Elisa is appalling,and WB not much better-to the best that they could be.

There is a study proposed with OMF that will be looking at other diseased states, Lyme being one of them (last time I checked). The results from this will give us a much better idea.

Follow the money? Can you explain what you mean by this please (I have a feeling I know, but want to check).


B
 
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17
The question I keep returning to is co-morbidities. Does this research, or do the Drs Davis and Naviaux have any hypotheses about whether some of the commonly accepted co-morbid conditions like dysautonomia precipitate the dauer/hypo metabolic state or are they caused by it? (or is this answer buried somewhere in the data that my molecular bio illiteracy can't see it). I think a case could be made for both before and after.

My daughter became ill as a teenager with a heterogeneous cluster of potential triggers (IGF1 deficiency, IGA deficiency, mono, surgery, chronic sinusitis, school stressors--IB diploma, moving to a new country). Her POTS symptoms started around the same time as her serious fatigue--nearly passing out when climbing the stairs at school, unable to stand for more than a few minutes on the train or a queue...and so forth. Her sleep disruption became horrific. And then 6 months later she was severely ill.

FWIW, she did a year of Famvir and it did absolutely nothing for her--in fact, her absolute worst Neuro crash was while she was on Famvir. Anecdotal evidence that perhaps the antiviral was contraindicated and her body wasn't ready to move from the dauer state. Who knows? Dr Davis' questions about this treatment approach in his notes resonated with me.

Now, two years after her official ME/CFS diagnosis (by the CCC by and ME expert) she has elevated GAD antibodies, evidence of autoimmunity in her GI tissues, ruthless neurological symptoms and worsening autonomic dysfunction. The most severe symptoms onset *later* when what this study calls the dauer state was obviously in full force.

So trying to play the chicken and egg question of what came first, did the dysautonomia (and other common ME comorbidities like unrefreshing sleep) hasten the dauer state or is it more likely a symptom of an oncoming hypometabolic state?

And in terms of treatment, do the co-morbidities, theoretically, need to be dealt with/treated in order for the body to issue an "all clear" which would allow tentative return to normal functioning? Or is there a point when the dauer state becomes the new normal and the body needs to be coaxed out of it? i.e. If the gastrointestinal motility issues are a consequence of the dauer state (lipid dysregulation, endocannabinoid malfunction?) do you address them via mitochondrial repair or via addressing say, an autoimmune component evidenced in tissue biopsy? Can we theorize a starting point smart people of PR?

I ask these questions because I noted on Dr Davis' comments that he specifically addressed the question of whether pushing the mitochondria via supplementation might be contraindicated if indeed, the body is attempting to protect itself. At what point CAN it be known whether it is safe to move on?

My daughter is going to embark on what may be significant autonomic treatment/interventions this fall, and I'm trying to ascertain if there is something in this study that I can keep in the back of my mind as it is decided what to try and what to avoid. I know that this study doesn't address treatment, but the data does support what I see in my daughter, symptom wise.

Trying really hard to resist the impulse to say something about the devolution of the conversation into Lyme territory...except to say sometimes Lyme isn't relevant to the issue at hand.
 

natasa778

Senior Member
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1,774
It would most likely be the target could turn out as a specific subset of purinergic signalling. Broad treatment is more likely to have unintended side effects.

Geoffrey Burnstock had a lot to say on that at 2011 InvestinME conference. He was focusing his talk on 2-3 (subsets of) purinergic receptors that he thought would probably be of most relevance and the ones to target in ME. I made detailed notes of the talk but don't know if I still have them saved them and where :oops:
 

alex3619

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Logan, Queensland, Australia
Without metabolism working correctly, and if chronic Lyme patients are in a similar dauer-state, how on earth is the immune system going to function optimally, keeping the infection in check?
According to the study we might, and this is not yet proven, be more vulnerable to both fungal and bacterial infections. This might be of relevance to both Lyme infected and mold sensitive patients.
 
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Do you mind saying what these treatments are? I have worked with an autonomic specialist myself and attempted to treat dysautonomia.

One of the therapies they are looking at is the venofer IV that has been investigated for POTS patients. The others are what most PR people know--rituxan, IV-Ig. They already know her dysautonomia is secondary to something. There is enough evidence for autoimmune issues, one doc believes, to treat using therapies used for autoimmune disease. Two of her docs are primarily researchers so they may have some experimental/new ideas by the time the aappointment rolls around.
 

Gingergrrl

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The question I keep returning to is co-morbidities. Does this research, or do the Drs Davis and Naviaux have any hypotheses about whether some of the commonly accepted co-morbid conditions like dysautonomia precipitate the dauer/hypo metabolic state or are they caused by it?

@PNWMom I am wondering the exact same thing re: the co-morbidities and for whatever reason, I seem to have two of the major co-morbidities (POTS and MCAS) but am still not certain if I have ME/CFS. I am still 50/50 on this. I am so curious if the researchers feel that the co-morbidities come first or vice versa like the chicken and the egg question. My very first symptom was IST/POTS in Jan 2013 in which my HR was going into the 160's and 170's throughout the day and night and woke me up from sleep constantly. It was completely unprompted which was both debilitating and very scary. In Feb 2013 I was put on Metoprolol and then switched later that year to Atenolol b/c it was longer acting. But on TTT in Feb 2016, I still showed "significant POTS".

FWIW, she did a year of Famvir and it did absolutely nothing for her

I also tried Famvir for eight months and it did nothing for me.

she has elevated GAD antibodies

I also learned this year that I have elevated anti GAD65 antibodies. Was your daughter tested for other autoantibodies like the VGCC (voltage gated calcium channel) antibodies or did she do any of the antibody panels from Mayo Clinic for paraneoplastic syndromes?

And in terms of treatment, do the co-morbidities, theoretically, need to be dealt with/treated in order for the body to issue an "all clear" which would allow tentative return to normal functioning?

I am wondering this exact question!!! My MCAS is the best it has ever been thanks to IVIG and if I did not know better, I would say it is actually gone. But I still have POTS/tachycardia, other autonomic issues, very poor muscle strength and severe shortness of breath and will have used a wheelchair for two years (in Oct).

Can we theorize a starting point smart people of PR?

Yes, I am hoping the smart people of PR (of which I am not one of them :aghhh:) will have some thoughts on this.

I ask these questions because I noted on Dr Davis' comments that he specifically addressed the question of whether pushing the mitochondria via supplementation might be contraindicated if indeed, the body is attempting to protect itself.

Any time I have tried to "push the mitochondria" it has not worked for me. I do not tolerate anything that is stimulating or agitating whatsoever. I had horrible reactions to the methylation supplements, Carnitine, and all kinds of things I tried when I was working with a naturopath in 2014.

My daughter is going to embark on what may be significant autonomic treatment/interventions this fall

I would love to hear more about this and hope it is okay to send you a PM in the future.

One of the therapies they are looking at is the venofer IV that has been investigated for POTS patients. The others are what most PR people know--rituxan, IV-Ig. They already know her dysautonomia is secondary to something. There is enough evidence for autoimmune issues, one doc believes, to treat using therapies used for autoimmune disease. Two of her docs are primarily researchers so they may have some experimental/new ideas by the time the appointment rolls around.

I had not heard of the Venofer IV and just Googled it. It says it is some kind of iron infusion. Is your daughter testing low on iron or is it being given off-label for POTS or another issue? I am currently doing IVIG (Gamunex) which has literally eliminated my MCAS to the point that I am tapering off Cortef, eating all regular foods, tolerating all smells, and no allergic reactions whatsoever. My goal is to build to an autoimmune dose but we started low b/c we did not know how I would tolerate it. I just got confirmation today that my next infusion will increase from 24 to 36 grams so I am finally moving closer toward the autoimmune dose which is in the 50's for me. After at least six IVIG infusions (and hopefully more!) I plan to do RTX next year.

So I am following a similar path to your daughter (minus the Venofer IV) but now I would love to learn more about this. I have tested slightly low on iron before and recently tested slightly low on Ferritin but it is never enough for doctors to recommend iron and I think the chance of me tolerating oral iron pills are slim. But an IV that bypasses the stomach is interesting.

Does or did your daughter have MCAS at any point or shortness of breath (dyspnea)? Best wishes to you and your daughter and hope to exchange ideas with you in the future.
 

boohealth

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With all due respect (truly, and you were very helpful in some feedback that you gave me re: IVIG which I deeply appreciated), I do not believe that a study that Dr. Davis endorses has anything to do with following the money. He is literally trying to save his son's life and if he felt a study was flawed or inaccurate, he would be the first to say so. This is not about money for him.

He needs money to continue doing studies.
I'll leave your other comment--he's dug into his worldview, and within that worldview, he is trying hard to save his son's life. But he won't listen to any suggestions that might help, if they don't fit his framework.
 
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