Probiotics During Heavy Antibiotic Treatments

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Hey gang.
Long time Chlamydia+Mycoplasma Pneumoniae (amongst a couple others) sufferer here and I'm about to embark on the famous Wheldon protocol with the daily doxy and weekly azithro nonstop/no breaks.

I'm not 100% sure there's an absolute consensus on whether to take probiotics during such a treatment. I've seen some doctors treat with probiotics during, and others who said the gut repairing protocol should only happen afterwards (so the antibiotics act at maximum effect).

What are your personal takes on that ?
 

ljimbo423

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Saccharomyces boulardii is a probiotic yeast. Because it's a yeast and not a bacteria, antibiotics don't have any effect on it. So it will work at it's maximum effectiveness even during antibiotic treatment.
 

Markus83

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I would take gut bacteria on long term abx. Abx don't kill all of them and it helps prevent diarrhoe. Btw: Azi is 3 times per week, not once.
 

ljimbo423

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Hey gang.
Long time Chlamydia+Mycoplasma Pneumoniae (amongst a couple others) sufferer here and I'm about to embark on the famous Wheldon protocol with the daily doxy and weekly azithro nonstop/no breaks.

I'm not 100% sure there's an absolute consensus on whether to take probiotics during such a treatment. I've seen some doctors treat with probiotics during, and others who said the gut repairing protocol should only happen afterwards (so the antibiotics act at maximum effect).

What are your personal takes on that ?
I would do everything you can to protect your gut during long term antibiotic treatment. I have learned that my gut is playing a big role in my CFS (most likely the root cause) and feel it's crucial to keep it healthy and well balanced.
 
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I would take gut bacteria on long term abx. Abx don't kill all of them and it helps prevent diarrhoe. Btw: Azi is 3 times per week, not once.
I know, it was just phrased that way: "weekly". Thanks.

I would do everything you can to protect your gut during long term antibiotic treatment. I have learned that my gut is playing a big role in my CFS (most likely the root cause) and feel it's crucial to keep it healthy and well balanced.
I agree. I talked to this top drawer doctor from the U.S. once and he believed in trying to eliminate the bug before proceeding to add any probiotic in the meantime. The last two doctors I've had, both educated in chronic infections, prescribed powerful probiotics during the antibiotic onslaught.

About the gut and its essential role: I know that whenever I feel bad in any way (over or undersleeping, diet, physical effort etc..) the gut feels bad. It's like the thermometer of my health.
 

ljimbo423

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I talked to this top drawer doctor from the U.S. once and he believed in trying to eliminate the bug before proceeding to add any probiotic in the meantime. The last two doctors I've had, both educated in chronic infections, prescribed powerful probiotics during the antibiotic onslaught.
If you just had high titers, I would have PCR testing done also, to make sure I had the infections before I did long term antibiotics.

I have seen many posts of people here that had high viral or bacterial titers but were found to be PCR negative. So their was no real re-activation of a bacterial or viral infection, even with high titers.
 
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If you just had high titers, I would have PCR testing done also, to make sure I had the infections before I did long term antibiotics.

I have seen many posts of people here that had high viral or bacterial titers but were found to be PCR negative. So their was no real re-activation of a bacterial or viral infection, even with high titers.
I have indeed never had the PCR test done and should consider it.

The thing is the only possible reason for my health condition is a chronic infection, I've covered just about all the rest and nothing comes up in the tests. Although I realize that isn't 100% valid reasoning.
 

ljimbo423

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I have indeed never had the PCR test done and should consider it.

The thing is the only possible reason for my health condition is a chronic infection, I've covered just about all the rest and nothing comes up in the tests. Although I realize that isn't 100% valid reasoning.
The reason I'm so afraid of long term antibiotics is because I'm almost positive that 30-35 courses of antibiotics, over many years is what's causing my CFS. It caused severe dysbiosis (I was tested) and that caused high levels of inflammatory bacteria in my gut.

Which have lipopolysaccharides (LPS) as part of there cellular makeup. These LPS get into the bloodstream and cause an immune system reaction and inflammation. Which appears to be an infection to the body.

But it's not really an infection, just LPS from these gram negative bacteria. I have gone from being severe for several years, to mostly mild, by mainly focusing on treating this gut dysbiosis (and possibly leaky gut) I have.

A leading CFS researcher, Chris Armstrong thinks this "low grade chronic sepsis" is what's causing CFS and PEM. He posted this quote here at Phoenix Rising-

Well we all experience a bacteremia when we exercise. The type of bacteria that enter your bloodstream are usually quite controllable by your immune system

but if your gut is further compromised they may release more bacteria into your blood or more pathogenic species or your immune system may already be depleted. This is the concept for the chronic sepsis or SIRS and this is what I think may be behind PEM.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...20-2016-metabolomics.47485/page-6#post-791828
 
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The reason I'm so afraid of long term antibiotics is because I'm almost positive that 30-35 courses of antibiotics, over many years is what's causing my CFS. It caused severe dysbiosis (I was tested) and that caused high levels of inflammatory bacteria in my gut.

Which have lipopolysaccharides (LPS) as part of there cellular makeup. These LPS get into the bloodstream and cause an immune system reaction and inflammation. Which appears to be an infection to the body.

But it's not really an infection, just LPS from these gram negative bacteria. I have gone from being severe for several years, to mostly mild, by mainly focusing on treating this gut dysbiosis (and possibly leaky gut) I have.

A leading CFS researcher, Chris Armstrong thinks this "low grade sepsis" is what's causing CFS and PEM. He posted this quote here at Phoenix Rising-



https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...20-2016-metabolomics.47485/page-6#post-791828
Interesting.

I'm going to give you my (briefest) sentiment of over 13 years of struggling with an ever-worsening CFS.
I did every test possible or just about: blood tests, hormonal neurotransmitters, hair tissue analysis, Pet scan... you name it. The only thing that ever came out really positive was EBV, CPN, Mycoplasma.
I've tried every possible treatment from herbal, homeopathic, kombucha, supplement based... even an INTENSIVE probiotic protocol for months with the best prebiotics+probiotics and my practitioner had me eating pure'd food daily for better digestion. Nothing. Nothing at all.

The only thing that's ever given me a reaction was antibiotics (Herxheimer ?) and although it obviously isn't ideal, it's the only thing that seems to not have the same impact as a drink of water on me.
All I'm saying is as far as I know, and many who suffer from this crap, it comes down to a bug that's been messing me up for over a decade, I don't believe it to be more complex than that. I feel poisoned, like sth's in there that shouldn't be there.
 

ljimbo423

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The only thing that's ever given me a reaction was antibiotics (Herxheimer ?) and although it obviously isn't ideal, it's the only thing that seems to not have the same impact as a drink of water on me.
All I'm saying is as far as I know, and many who suffer from this crap, it comes down to a bug that's been messing me up for over a decade, I don't believe it to be more complex than that. I feel poisoned, like sth's in there that shouldn't be there.
I agree with everything you say here. I'm just posing the possibility the the "bug(s)" you are dealing with, might be in your gut.

The die-off or Hexhiemer reaction you feel, IMO is most likely coming from the LPS in the bacteria in your gut, that the antibiotics you took killed, getting into your bloodstream. This Herxiemer reaction to killing off bacteria in the gut is very common.

Gut dysbiosis is often extremely hard to re-balance. I've been on a low carb diet, taking pre and probiotics and a fairly high dose of antibiotic herbs for a little over 2 years. It has taken me that long to go from moderate to mostly mild CFS by treating my gut.

It's up to you what you do, I just feel like I have a responsibility to pass on what I've learned in the past 12 years. I have between 15-20,000 hours of research into CFS (25-30 hours a week for the last 11 years) and it's possible causes and this is what I have learned.

I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to force this info on you. If you do, just ignore it, because that's not my intent.