Potential risks of thiol supps: IV glutathione, alpha lipoic acid (ALA), N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) etc

Sushi

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This thread was split from this point in the thread: Did I just slam the door on a PEM episode?

@SOC you might want to reconsider taking ALA.
If you decide to try ALA read up on the dosing schedule which is a pain in the butt. I think it is 4 times per day and that this is important because it chelates heavy metals and is likely to "drop them" if the dose runs out en route. It just might drop them in a worse place than it found them.
 
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SOC

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If you decide to try ALA read up on the dosing schedule which is a pain in the butt. I think it is 4 times per day and that this is important because it chelates heavy metals and is likely to "drop them" if the dose runs out en route. It just might drop them in a worse place than it found them.
:eek:

I'll be careful. I do recall going through some process a few years ago to make sure I wasn't doing exactly that, but other than a vague memory, the whole thing is gone from my head. :rolleyes:
 

SDSue

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If you decide to try ALA read up on the dosing schedule which is a pain in the butt. I think it is 4 times per day and that this is important because it chelates heavy metals and is likely to "drop them" if the dose runs out en route. It just might drop them in a worse place than it found them.
Well, crap.

That is all. Carry on.
 

Sidereal

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If you decide to try ALA read up on the dosing schedule which is a pain in the butt. I think it is 4 times per day and that this is important because it chelates heavy metals and is likely to "drop them" if the dose runs out en route. It just might drop them in a worse place than it found them.
This is important. Taking it infrequently / on an irregular schedule has made some people very sick. This has been interpreted by some as mercury redistribution. Whatever the cause, it seems unwise to take it unless you observe its half life. People advise taking a small dose every 3 hours. Unfortunately that includes nighttime dosing too.

FWIW, ALA is the only mitochondrial supplement I've noticed benefits from but the administration schedule is a PITA so I haven't stuck with it.
 
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SOC

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Since ALA seems to functioning primarily as an antioxidant re: mitochondrial effects, would it make more sense to go with an easier-to-dose, less risky antioxidant? Since CoQ10 acts as an antioxidant, wouldn't the high doses we're thinking of be sufficient antioxidant protection?
 

SDSue

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This is important. Taking it infrequently / on an irregular schedule has made some people very sick. This has been interpreted by some as mercury redistribution. Whatever the cause, it seems unwise to take it unless you observe its half life which is 3-4 hours. People advise taking a small dose every 3 hours. Unfortunately that includes nighttime dosing too.

FWIW, ALA is the only mitochondrial supplement I've noticed benefits from but the administration schedule is a PITA so I haven't stuck with it.
Wow. Could this be why my headaches have gone from tolerable to extreme over the last few months on a multi (KPax Immune) that includes ALA - dosing twice per day only.

What is the escape route if that is the case?
 

Sidereal

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Wow. Could this be why my headaches have gone from tolerable to extreme over the last few months on a multi (KPax Immune) that includes ALA - dosing twice per day only.

What is the escape route if that is the case?
Impossible to say. That KPax supplement sounds like an absolute nightmare so it could be any number of things within it. If it's ALA you'd probably have experienced negative reactions to other sulfur (well, thiol) supplements too. Do you have negative reactions to things like glutathione?
 

SDSue

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Impossible to say. That KPax supplement sounds like an absolute nightmare so it could be any number of things within it. If it's ALA you'd probably have experienced negative reactions to other sulfur (well, thiol) supplements too. Do you have negative reactions to things like glutathione?
A glutathione IV took me from moderate to severe, crawling thru an airport, within hours. :(
 

Sidereal

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A glutathione IV took me from moderate to severe, crawling thru an airport, within hours. :(
:eek:

If I were you, I'd stop the ALA stat.

Do/did you have amalgams? I've heard of other severe neurological reactions of this sort to IV glutathione on the ALA forums where people attribute these reactions to the mercury redistributive properties of these supps.
 

alice111

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:eek:

If I were you, I'd stop the ALA stat.

Do/did you have amalgams? I've heard of other severe neurological reactions of this sort to IV glutathione on the ALA forums where people attribute these reactions to the mercury redistributive properties of these supps.
I also had a severe reaction to iv glutathione. Went from housebound to bedridden in a day. It's two years later and I still haven't recovered.. :(
I don't have Mercury amalgams!
What kind of neurological reactions?
Ps sorry @SOC if I'm taking this convo off track!
 

SDSue

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:eek:

If I were you, I'd stop the ALA stat.

Do/did you have amalgams? I've heard of other severe neurological reactions of this sort to IV glutathione on the ALA forums where people attribute these reactions to the mercury redistributive properties of these supps.
I still have a mouthful. It’s on my (lengthy) to-do list.
 
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When I read on it, you didn't need to worry about amalgams and so on. I have been on it for years w a mouth full of stuff and I am ok. I don't rmember but before you disregard do a good reaserch. Also Dr K verified and she does prefer it to come from food but she was ok w me taking it as supplement ( you should see how many amalgams I have)
 
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@SDSue - like you I took both Glutathione and ALA once and was wiped out. The only way back is following the Cutler Protocol - many have succeeded (only use ALA in regular, low doses according to Cutlers protocl). Following the guidelines and taking methylation supps have taken me from struggling to stand back to light exercise (touch wood).

http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/
Yahoo Frequent Dose Chelation Group for advice

I really didn't think I was mercury poisoned but I now know better

Hope that helps

---------------------------------
Disclaimer: This is not medical advice and should be discussed with your medical practitioner.
 

Sidereal

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@SDSue - like you I took both Glutathione and ALA once and was wiped out. The only way back is following the Cutler Protocol - many have succeeded (only use ALA in regular, low doses according to Cutlers protocl). Following the guidelines and taking methylation supps have taken me from struggling to stand back to light exercise (touch wood).

http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/
Yahoo Frequent Dose Chelation Group for advice

I really didn't think I was mercury poisoned but I now know better

Hope that helps

---------------------------------
Disclaimer: This is not medical advice and should be discussed with your medical practitioner.
When you say wiped out, what happened to you specifically, if you don't mind sharing?
 

SDSue

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@SDSue - like you I took both Glutathione and ALA once and was wiped out. The only way back is following the Cutler Protocol - many have succeeded (only use ALA in regular, low doses according to Cutlers protocl). Following the guidelines and taking methylation supps have taken me from struggling to stand back to light exercise (touch wood).

http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/
Yahoo Frequent Dose Chelation Group for advice

I really didn't think I was mercury poisoned but I now know better

Hope that helps

---------------------------------
Disclaimer: This is not medical advice and should be discussed with your medical practitioner.
Thanks so much for the information. I’ve long wanted to work on chelation as I had heavy mercury exposure (beyond broken thermometers and amalgams) as a kid. I’d love to hear more details about your journey before, during, and after chelation.
 

Sidereal

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@SDSue, Dr Cutler is the best source of information on chelation. You can join the Yahoo groups on chelation (autism mercury, frequent dose chelation and adult metal chelation) but the layout is quite difficult to navigate. The easiest way to search for his posts on Yahoo groups are the Onibasu archives:

http://onibasu.com/

You can type in something like "IV glutathione cutler" into the search box and tick "Autism-Mercury", "frequent-dose-chelation" and "adult-metal-chelation".

Just a word of warning, his communication style is very outspoken and abrasive but don't be put off by the method of presentation. He really is right and everyone else really is wrong on this particular topic. His book was out in 1999 and his protocol is still followed 16 years later by thousands which tells you that it does actually work for many. Not everyone of course.

Regarding IV glutathione, he says he has seen many cases of severe adverse reactions such as the one you have described. People ending up in wheelchairs or psychotic.

I would also recommend @David Hammond's book on mercury as a good introduction. You really wanna make sure you get this right because doing it wrong can lead to really severe outcomes. Best wishes.
 

Sidereal

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Since ALA seems to functioning primarily as an antioxidant re: mitochondrial effects, would it make more sense to go with an easier-to-dose, less risky antioxidant? Since CoQ10 acts as an antioxidant, wouldn't the high doses we're thinking of be sufficient antioxidant protection?
Unfortunately not. Antioxidants aren't interchangeable, the term is far too broad. CoQ10 and ALA perform vastly different functions in the cell. ALA has a number of properties affecting energy production which could be beneficial for ME/CFS. I suspect many people who have recovered their health using Dr Cutler's protocol benefitted primarily from its role in modulating redox signalling, glutathione recycling, pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, alpha ketoglutarate dehydrogenase complex, glycine cleavage system, phase II liver detox etc. - all areas of severe problems in ME/CFS - moreso than its mercury chelating properties.

Given your hyperglycaemia situation, you might be interested in the Pubmed literature on ALA and its role in ameliorating metabolic disorders like obesity and diabetes. Of course the mainstream literature uses harmful high infrequent doses of ALA like 600 mg twice daily and yet still some derive benefits even from this improper dosing. Of course they are relatively healthy people with "just" metabolic syndrome, nowhere near as fragile and disabled as us.

People with ME/CFS are much much sicker and as evidenced by posts on mercury chelation groups are likely to suffer severe adverse reactions to such schedules so taking it at a tiny dose every three hours as Dr Cutler recommends would be wise even if you're not using it for its chelating properties. Even 5 mg every three hours produces noticeable effects for me; I can't emphasise enough how powerful this supplement is.

Of course it cannot be taken by anyone with amalgams since it is a chelator and even once those have been removed it should still be taken in accordance with its half life since taking it on a random schedule will concentrate mercury into the brain because ALA readily crosses the blood brain barrier. Amalgams have to be removed first.