Possible combination famvir + andrographolide (for ME + LC)

[godlovesatrier]

Responding to a reply on a different thread: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ccr5-antagonist-maraviroc.85084/#post-2397360

In summary: looking for ccr5 antagonists - original thread mentions a different herbal. But then I found out the below information which might be useful.

Andrographolide is a ccr5 antagonist too and works on rna viruses. Difference is it has been shown to work against SARS-COV-2 - whereas Sanguisorba officinalis doesn't seem to have that effect. Whether this makes any difference at all though isn't clear.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8619093/

Cell level explanation influenza

cell level explanation HIV


It also hits ebv


So my anecdotal experience is that even if you take covid out of the equation I experienced amelioration of fatigue (which took maybe 3-6 months of andrographis whole leaf dosing) and later on quasi remission by taking just andrographis and nothing else. I used to take 2g 3x a day. The only reason I stopped is because my canker sores got worse taking it, because andro dries the body out. But now if suspect if I combined Famvir and Andrographis whole leaf, I'd get the benefits of stopping the cankers (Anecdotal but I found that famvir stops my canker sores, either by stopping my mouth drying out or stopping it via another means) and all the above benefits.
So just a theory but I wonder if Famvir and Androgpraphis (assuming it isn't too much for the kidneys - andrographis can be quite kidney heavy) - could be a potent combination. Cost would be £250 UK to do this I reckon with low dose famvir and standard dose andrographis whole leaf.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...valuation_in_major_organ_cell_representatives

SARS-CoV-2 at 25TCID 50 was able to reach the maximal infectivity of 95% in Calu-3 cells. Post-infection treatment of A. paniculata and andrographolide in SARS-CoV–2 infected Calu-3 cells significantly inhibited the production of infectious virions with the IC 50 of 0.036 μg/mL and 0.034 μM, respectively, as determined by plaque assay. The cytotoxicity profile developed over the cell line representatives of major organs, including liver (HepG2 and imHC), kidney (HK-2), intestine (Caco-2), lung (Calu-3) and brain (SH-SY5Y), showed the CC 50 of >100 μg/mL for A. paniculata extract and 13.2-81.5 μM for andrographolide, respectively, corresponding to the selectivity index over 380. In conclusion, this study provided experimental evidence in favor of A. paniculata and andrographolide for further development as a monotherapy or in combination with other effective drugs against SARS-CoV–2 infection.

So just to summarise this is a possible alternative to maraviroc. Why Famvir? Well if ME patients did have high herpes viruses they'd need to treat them long term, or for at least a few years at low doses potentially - if they got long covid they'd need a ccr5 antagonist for a certain duration x - unknown. So the combination might stop the patients ME getting worse while still dealing with covid latency.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Early startup effects of andrographis are headaches, feeling extra thirsty, dry mouth, possibly nausea and possibly an exacerbation of mild allergic symptoms or breathlessness/asthma.

These generally get a lot better after 2 weeks of dosing or go away completely. They can come back and I've never figured out why. It is possible though that metabolic processes or herpes viruses replicate which andro doesn't adequately control and famvir might help with that assuming someone could get it.

Just a thought anyway as I am still paranoid about getting rid of LC once I get it. Or should I say covid?!

 

[Judee]

Are you still trying this, @godlovesatrier?

 

[godlovesatrier]

No insomnia and strangely kidney stones. I've got kidney stones again now a whole year to the month that it happened.

As for andrographis I've come to realise now that all herbs and many medicsifons change our microbiome and so far based on the people I've spoken to my microbiome is very poor quality with only 200 species on average. Everyone with ME that I've spoken to has about 400. And healthy people have 1000. The Lancet study for this is paywalled so I can't link it.

 

[Judee]

As for andrographis I've come to realise now that all herbs and many medicsifons change our microbiome

I think everything does but maybe the antivirals (and antiviral herbals) get it going back in the right direction?? Hopefully.

Ken says even the viruses alter the microbiome.

https://cfsremission.com/2023/01/14/antivirals-and-me-cfs-paxlovid-tamiflu-etc/

"It is well documented that virus changes the microbiome (see this list 20+ studies for COVID). A possible reason is that the virus wants to increase substances it needed to reproduce and decrease the substances that inhibits it. This is done by chemical signaling — the virus sends bogus messages to the microbiome.

By reflection, it is likely that antivirals also change the microbiome – possibly by reversing the changes done by the virus. Likely along the same mechanism."

Taking low dose Famvir now so just wanted to see if I could help it a little more.

 

[godlovesatrier]

That's right but what I meant was that all these things can kill freindly bacteria and if yours are as ridiculously low as mine it could worsen existing issues.

You're fine with antivirals tho becuase as he says the effect could be useful.

I'm convinced that the anti inflammatory agents created by the gut in response to prebiotics has a huge impact on the ability of ebv to reproduce. But probably other viruses too.

Sadly the immune challenge from say a vaccine is still too much and causes a major flare which lasts about six weeks with another six to twelve weeks of recovery after that.

 

[Judee]

I do think I seem to get a much stronger immune response when I add in an antiviral herbal mid-day...one like andrographis (1/4 tablet).

I also was on wormwood before I started the Famvir but remembered it should be taken on rotation. Plus, I've added the reishi.

I want to get a consistent rotation of these three going each day esp since they are less expensive than the Famvir which I am still now at a dose of 125mg in the morning and 250mg in the evening.

 

[godlovesatrier]

They do different things tho. Famvir blocks viral replication. The other three just modulate NK cells or inf gamma. Very different thing altogether.

I mean if the herbs haven't worked - you took Equilibrant for years - then I think famvir is a better bet.

 

[Judee]

then I think famvir is a better bet.

I'm still taking the Famvir. Like I said esp with the Andrographis I notice more response though.

I guess I was confused too because I thought you were taking reishi with Valtrex. Wouldn't that be similar?

 

[godlovesatrier]

Life extension reishi definitely does something and it seems to work a lot better with other products. But Joshua's mass spectrometry proved that most products are fake. So without high quality products you're already at a disadvantage with herbs.

Whereas the drugs target things very well. Andrographis quite strongly upregulates immune function so I'm convinced that's why you're seeing a pickup from that.

I just think there comes a point where herbal compound's don't really do much unless they are say in the right extracted form like artemix. But drugs for specific viruses you know you've got can be great.

 

[Judee]

Someone in an earlier thread linked this paper that says Andrographis helps with Akkermansia.

I know you've been trying to increase that: https://www.researchgate.net/public...robial_Composition_of_Akkermansia_muciniphila

 

[godlovesatrier]

Not sure that's true. My baseline was extremely low even with very occasional andro usage.

However life extension pomegrenate and blueberry extracts at 1000mg a day do work. Phgg may also have a secondary activity on akkermansia.