POLL: Do you have jittery side effects on methylcobalamin and caffeine?

[Adlyfrost]

Thanks so much for your participation!!!!

 

[Adlyfrost]

I said sometimes jittery on caffeine because sometimes I can tolerate green tea or decaf coffee very well. Other times, the slightest caffeine in decaffeinated tea will keep me up for days.

 

[NilaJones]

I tried upping my B12 to 2mcg yesterday (yes, that's right, HALF the DV) and was shaky for 7 hours, then crashed. Similar to caffeine, which I never use for that reason.

 

[Adlyfrost]

@NilaJones : I was wondering if some of the people on this site that insist on pushing through B12 side effects, esp. methylcobalamin side-effects, never had this problem. I thought at first it might be something I haven't addressed- and it might, have to wait for my SNP's to be tested still and some other tests. But the similarity of how I feel to coffee is amazing- except I don't have much if any insomnia with B12- just the jitters.

Feel the SAME way with leafy greens lately. Evertime I get too Gung-ho on green smoothies I have to stop for jitters. Maybe my SNP's will shed some light on this.

 

[Critterina]

So, @Adlyfrost, I'm so glad you asked this. What I've been thinking of asking about is whether people are more tolerant to caffeine once they start methylation.

I wouldn't call my reaction to caffeine "jittery" but I do react strongly and have all my life. Since starting all these supplements about 1.5 years ago, I can now tolerate 2 cups of coffee most days (although I hardly ever drink that much, I could), whereas most of my life I could tolerate only half a cup. (My main symptom is vasoconstriction of the small capillaries, turning my fingernails blue, and hands, feet and nose cold.)

 

[Sherpa]

Before starting methyl B12 / methylation supplements I had good results from drinking 6oz of black coffee, sweetened with 2-5g ofd-ribose. It could reliably "revive" my mood and energy after a crash. I only used caffeine occasionally (up to 3x a week) for maximum effect.

Since starting methylation supplements, am "more sensitive" to getting overstimulated from coffee but can still still take some cautiously.

 

[Adlyfrost]

As with most everything with CFS, there is no one one size fits all here. Every possible combination- some people more tolerant to caffeine with methylB12 and folate and some more sensitive.

Got another discussion going here:
(Should have put it with the poll, but thought of the poll later)

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...caffeine-and-b12-tolerance.32731/#post-505323

 

[whodathunkit]

Just re-mentioning Caledonia's excellent point from the main thread that adrenal issues can contribute a lot to problems tolerating caffeine. Looking back, I know I've had adrenal issues pretty much my whole life. Minor when young (possibly congenital from being a preemie), magnified 1000x when older by long-time crappy lifestyle.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I drank coffee all my life until I had a neurotoxic reaction to the antibiotic Levaquin (pre CFS) and developed a complete intolerance to caffeine. Now I cannot even drink decaf coffee or tea.

When I started the methyl B-12 shots, I seemed to be okay but once I added the m-folate, I had a horrible reaction (although I now know that the dose was just too high.) Because I am now on so many new meds, I am holding off on trying to re-start the methylation supplements.

I might have missed it, but is there a finding that people who cannot tolerate caffeine also cannot tolerate the methylation supplements? Very interesting thread!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I drank coffee all my life until I had a neurotoxic reaction to the antibiotic Levaquin (pre CFS) and developed a complete intolerance to caffeine.

Levaquin and Magnesium

This is another very ironic and damaging drug interaction that should always be considered to be a problem, but almost never is. The irony is that Levaquin can cause SEVERE Magnesium Depletion and this magnesium deficiency is one of the main causes of Levaquin Tendonitis. Yet ironically, giving magnesium inactivates the Levaquin- meaning that you CANNOT take magnesium while you are taking the Levaquin in order to counteract the problem of magnesium deficiency that the Levaquin causes!

One thing that CAN be done, however, is to 'pretreat' someone with magnesium for a day or two in order to ensure that they have sufficient magnesium stores before giving them Levaquin. However, if someone can wait one or two days before taking Levaquin, then it's likely that they should not even be TAKING Levaquin in the first place because Levaquin should ONLY be used in life threatening infections.

So, after reading the page on the Signs of Magnesium Deficiency and after knowing that several prominent doctors call magnesium deficiency an 'undiagnosed epidemic', are you 100% sure that YOU are not at increased risk of Levaquin Tendonitis from magnesium deficiency? Many other previously 'healthy' people who took this drug for something as innocent as a Levaquin Sinus Infection are now completely and possibly permanently disabled from the effects of this drug and the consequences of Levaquin drug interactions. They didn't think that they were magnesium deficient either.

 

[Adlyfrost]

I drank coffee all my life until I had a neurotoxic reaction to the antibiotic Levaquin (pre CFS) and developed a complete intolerance to caffeine. Now I cannot even drink decaf coffee or tea.

When I started the methyl B-12 shots, I seemed to be okay but once I added the m-folate, I had a horrible reaction (although I now know that the dose was just too high.) Because I am now on so many new meds, I am holding off on trying to re-start the methylation supplements.

I might have missed it, but is there a finding that people who cannot tolerate caffeine also cannot tolerate the methylation supplements? Very interesting thread!

That's terrible that you can't enjoy your coffee anymore. I had a similar reaction when I took Levaquin once. It saved my life but I pray that I never have to take that stuff again! It is horrible!

I read about your awful experience with overmethylating. That was heart-breaking what you went through. I hope you are feeling better now.

My caffeine tolerance did come back though from Levaquin- I don't remember how long it took. I generally have light caffeine tolerance: no caffeinated coffee but green tea is ok, but it is up and down. Around summer solstice it is like you- zero tolerance even to decaf or else I am up all night (I also get summer sad). Raw leafy greens make it worse. I think from what I am reading, some people can't tolerate a lot of methyl donors but I think Caledonia is right- the reasons why they can't tolerate caffeine or methylcobalamin might be complicated.

Because my caffeine tolerance is variable, I thought if I could figure out what to do about increasing and stabilizing it, I could also increase tolerance to methylB12. However, judging from the responses, there is no one to one correlation between the two- I don't think. Still compiling data... But so far in is note worthy that if one is jittery on mB12 they have at least some jitters on caffeine. But the reverse is NOT true. Some people have jitters on caffeine but they CAN tolerate mB12.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gondwanaland

I couldn't get your quote to copy but unfortunately for me, I didn't learn about how Levaquin completely depletes your body of Magnesium until long after I took it and it nearly ruptured the tendon in my arm. I mentioned it here b/c Levaquin can also cause caffeine intolerance which it did for me. I had the entire fq toxicity syndrome before I even knew there was a name for it. I am not sure if there is any connection with B-12 though?

@Adlyfrost

That's terrible that you can't enjoy your coffee anymore. I had a similar reaction when I took Levaquin once. It saved my life but I pray that I never have to take that stuff again! It is horrible!

I honestly don't even care about the coffee and for me it is not so much that is causes insomnia as that it causes tachycardia and a general feeling of unwell. And please, never take Levaquin again if you can avoid it!

I read about your awful experience with overmethylating. That was heart-breaking what you went through. I hope you are feeling better now.

Thanks for asking and I am completely better from the overmethylation fiasco but have not yet attempted it again.

I think from what I am reading, some people can't tolerate a lot of methyl donors but I think Caledonia is right- the reasons why they can't tolerate caffeine or methylcobalamin might be complicated.

If you learn more about the connection, I am really interested and this is a great thread.

Still compiling data... But so far in is note worthy that if one is jittery on mB12 they have at least some jitters on caffeine. But the reverse is NOT true. Some people have jitters on caffeine but they CAN tolerate mB12.

That is interesting and I think I probably actually can tolerate the M-B12 at a much lower dose and without the Folate, I just haven't tried again yet.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gingergrrl One year ago I have been prescribed cipro and shortly after I found out about it depleting magnesium, but it took me several months to find a tolerable form.

For some people magnesium supplementation can be tricky since it involves balancing electrolytes.

@Adlyfrost there are several sites about caffeine causing magnesium loss.

I think the link between magnesium depletion and B12 & folate is basically that a lot of magnesium will be needed for additional ATP generation.

izzy

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gondwanaland Just curious, what form of Magnesium did you finally find to be the most tolerable?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland Just curious, what form of Magnesium did you finally find to be the most tolerable?

Against all odds, magnesium oxide.

I believe that due to high ammonia I can't tolerate the organic forms.

izzy

 

[Adlyfrost]

Against all odds, magnesium oxide.

I believe that due to high ammonia I can't tolerate the organic forms.

izzy

Interesting. My daughter gets diarrhea from most forms but did well with oxide too. Isn't it the least bioavailable though?

Btw I was doing 1200 a day with potassium and still couldn't calm down. I usually do the transdermal morning and night but forgot. And I take a mg Everytime I have caffeinated tea when I can tolerate tea.

Mag does help keep me calm along with taurine and recently d ribose too. However when I get intolerant of caffeine I just have to stop. Nothing else will cure the intolerance.

I definitely think I am mag deficient despite supplementation as are most PWME/CFS. But there are times when I am drastically deficient of alot of things and trying to figure out what knocks me out of homeostasis. It seems like my needs and doses of everything can change from week to week.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting. My daughter gets diarrhea from most forms but did well with oxide too. Isn't it the least bioavailable though?

It is said to be the least bioavailable but it is the form with most Mg atoms per weight, so I think this makes it better. I also think it is the best form when one's pH is too low (too acidic). I am not a biochemist, but if I remember my chemistry / biochem classes well, to many hydrogens will bind to oxygens. I wonder if being acidic helps breaking down the Mg-O bond.

Btw I was doing 1200 a day with potassium and still couldn't calm down.

The high potassium probably made your Mg deficiency worse.

Mag does help keep me calm along with taurine and recently d ribose too. However when I get intolerant of caffeine I just have to stop. Nothing else will cure the intolerance.

I definitely think I am mag deficient despite supplementation as are most PWME/CFS. But there are times when I am drastically deficient of alot of things and trying to figure out what knocks me out of homeostasis. It seems like my needs and doses of everything can change from week to week.

I can definetly relate. I have noticed that foods high in salicylate and nitrate increase my magnesium needs. Oddly those foods are the highest in magnesium as well. Go figure. Perhaps they also have too much folate, calcium and potassium.

izzy

 

[NilaJones]

@NilaJones : I was wondering if some of the people on this site that insist on pushing through B12 side effects, esp. methylcobalamin side-effects, never had this problem. I thought at first it might be something I haven't addressed- and it might, have to wait for my SNP's to be tested still and some other tests. But the similarity of how I feel to coffee is amazing- except I don't have much if any insomnia with B12- just the jitters.

I don't know about 'pushing' but I do know that many (or all?) of the people here who take high quantities don't get the jittery reaction.

I was astounded when I learned that not everyone reacts like us.

Caffeine does the same thing to me as too much B12 -- excess energy, and then a deep crash. I cannot even eat one chocolate chip.

Feel the SAME way with leafy greens lately. Evertime I get too Gung-ho on green smoothies I have to stop for jitters. Maybe my SNP's will shed some light on this.

That would be the folate in greens, combining with your B12, I believe.

 

[Adlyfrost]

@Gondwanaland : I really think you might be on to something with magnesium. Other mineral deficiencies too! What I am really interested in is their cofactors and things that might help us take them in.

Last year I was out of necessity on a mostly liquid diet, in bed being sick and sedentary, and took a lot of mild laxatives that helped VERY painful intestinal problems and viral symptoms. Now that my body is rebuilding it can't keep up with the demand. You are unequivocally right about magnesium and I may also be low in phosphorus and zinc too.

Last year I took plenty of magnesium but I cut out my multivitamin. My iron is way low too because iron is like a happy pill for intestinal pathogens of all sorts and had to cut it out last year- so I am slowly trying to rebuild my iron stores too. And I think the older one is, the harder it is to bounce back- we don't absorb as well as we used to.

Last night I took some CALM (powder magnesium supplement) and my heart started racing too. So I am going to be sure and take minerals with every meal in small amount everyday!

I also wonder if having B1, K, A, D are important cofactors- of hard to find a multivitamin to accommodate my needs and sensitivities but I think it would be useful for me right now.

 

[Adlyfrost]

I also think women, esp. menstruating women are hit with a double whammy- hormones, blood loss, nutrients used to prepare body for pregnancy every month, smaller muscles all can be potential roadblocks to CFS/ME recovery, esp. when it comes to maintaining mineral stores.

Sorry to get off topic- but I don't think one can talk about B12 and caffeine tolerance and not talk about minerals.