Phospholipids

[pemone]

Or perhaps it is proof that you have no idea what you are talking about, but like to make assumptions about other persons based on your personal bias. FYI, I have used PPC, not lecithin. And your claim that PPC doesn't function as a source of choline is wrong.

So that is a useful topic. What we need is a study that measures choline levels after taking the two forms of phospholipids. I will ask BodyBio if they have such a study and I won't be surprised if they do not. Do you have such a study?

I can see that you are not able to understand this, here is another source where the same is explained (perhaps more clearly for you):

http://lipidlibrary.aocs.org/Lipids/pc/index.htm

Who cares? This has proven nothing. There is no double blind study showing any adverse effect from taking phospholipids. There is just lots of your hand waving on metabolic pathway charts. I am interested in clinical outcomes for things of this type.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. Just because Rich Vank included some PC in his protocol (and actually he recommended phosphatidylserine) it means what exactly?

I wasn't appealing to authority. I was responding to your remark that "I have never heard of a single person who got any serious improvement from it."

In that case I'll wait for the studies. In the meantime, I have tried it, and it didn't help. I'm sorry that is so hard for you to accept. But of course, with all the marketing that Bodybio is doing, that is understandable.

That is a very reasonable thing to do...wait for studies. And you are right there are not many.

 

[pemone]

phospholipids without the lipids, huh? phosphos?

A phospholipid has three fatty acid attachments, and one of those is replaced by a phosphate group. The two other attachments are for fatty acids, which can be saturated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, etc.

When you eat soy lecithin, what you are getting is that phosphate group head, which is a water-loving compound, already bound to the two fatty acid tails. That forms a complete phospholipid.

BodyBio is stripping off the fatty acid tails and leaves just the phosphate group head. The claim they are making is that this form of the phospholipid improves its ability to absorb into cell membranes.

It's very reasonable to question their claim and to want proof. I also want proof. I was just passing on the claim that is being made.

 

[undcvr]

I have read that it is important to not take just a lecithin product that contains PC. You want a PC that has been stripped from its fatty acids, to allow it to incorporate more easily into your cell membranes:

What do you mean by 'stripped from its fatty acid'? Even NT Factor does not claim that it does that but I do know that the PC in their product is concentrated and purified.

PC helps at both the liver and the cellular level so you could be feeling better from either of those things.

 

[pemone]

Here's a study showing blood levels of choline after PPC administration:

https://www.drugs.com/drp/phoschol-concentrate.html

Did you read the ingredient label? This is soy lecithin with phosphatidylcholine CONCENTRATED. The product label for PhosChol makes very clear that it contains both poly and monounsaturated fats.

You say you understand the purification issue, yet the very first thing you do is post something about the wrong type of product.

I understand and agree with your point that we need proof. Proof means you produce the chart you are showing for BOTH forms of phosphatidylcholine together at the same time. The chart you are showing is proof that the wrong form breaks down, and says nothing about the right form.

 

[pemone]

What do you mean by 'stripped from its fatty acid'? Even NT Factor does not claim that it does that but I do know that the PC in their product is concentrated and purified.

PC helps at both the liver and the cellular level so you could be feeling better from either of those things.

A phospholipid has two fatty acid tails. BodyBio - and a very small number of other manufacturers - take off those tails.

Why don't you just listen to the video I posted?

 

[pemone]

PC helps at both the liver and the cellular level so you could be feeling better from either of those things.

That's totally true. Aside from placebo effect, there could be a neuro stimulative effect, and there could be other side effects from breakdown products.

But, given that CFS involves mitochondrial dysfunction, potential damage to the mitochondrial membrane, oxidative stress to membrane tissues, etc, it is certainly intriguing to consider a supplement that *claims* to help repair those damaged membranes.

I am in agreement that there are not good studies showing this.

 

[Sherlock]

A phospholipid has three fatty acid attachments, and one of those is replaced by a phosphate group. The two other attachments are for fatty acids, which can be saturated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, etc.

When you eat soy lecithin, what you are getting is that phosphate group head, which is a water-loving compound, already bound to the two fatty acid tails. That forms a complete phospholipid.

BodyBio is stripping off the fatty acid tails and leaves just the phosphate group head. The claim they are making is that this form of the phospholipid improves its ability to absorb into cell membranes.

It's very reasonable to question their claim and to want proof. I also want proof. I was just passing on the claim that is being made.

About 2-3 years ago, a trendy supplement that was supposedly much better than ordinary free Omega 3's consisted of a phospholipid variety wherein the diglyceride portion was composed of O3's -- because it supposedly gets incorporated into cell membranes better. Those products might have probably disappeared by now because *most* supplement claims don't pan out.

There's no need for continued lectures on purported mechanisms which are most likely unfounded and even seem false on their face. A typical cell membrane is innately fluid enough (especially with lots of PUFA DAG) so that phospholipids, membrane bound proteins, etc have no trouble moving around - even flipping from the external layer of the bilayer to the jnternal or vice versa.

 

[pemone]

There's no need for continued lectures on purported mechanisms which are most likely unfounded and even seem false on their face. A typical cell membrane is innately fluid enough (especially with lots of PUFA DAG) so that phospholipids, membrane bound proteins, etc have no trouble moving around - even flipping from the external layer of the bilayer to the jnternal or vice versa.

I am not lecturing, and I acknowledge BodyBio needs to prove their point.

You are still not getting their claim. Their claim is that if you take a phosphatidylcholine that is concentrated lecithin that digestion breaks that down to components like choline. Adreno's chart shows that effect. You don't get the fully constructed phospholipid head passing through digestion and incorporating directly to the cell membrane. So *if* you believe their claim, it is not the case that ingesting a soy lecithin would deliver a complete phospholipid to the cell membrane.

I fully respect that you don't believe their claim. I fully respect that there are not good studies here.

 

[Sherlock]

As a side note on

polyenylphosphatidylcholine

which is the kind (PPC) trumpeted by a certain Dr. N. Perricone since 10 years ago or more in his "ultra young looking skin" products, by which he is now ulra rich.

 

[pemone]

It's you who don't understand, or is simply parroting marketing information. It is exactly the same ingredient, polyenylphosphatidylcholine, with bodybio adding a few extra ingredients. Bodybio is not stripped of fats, that's nonsense (they are lipids), and nowhere do they claim this.

Did you listen to the video I posted, indexed into timepoint 925 on the video?

I would totally understand if you listened to the claim he is making and said any of the following:

1) I don't believe his claim that their form of PC is more effective than soy lecithin
2) I don't believe they can manufacture what they claim they are manufacturing, which is a form of PC with the lipids extracted.

But you don't do that. Instead you say things like BodyBio PC is a lipid and nowhere do they make a claim that they extract it from the soy lecithin. I just posted a video where he spends minutes going out of his way to explain how they separate the lipid tails of the phospholipid and purify it.

In your own words: what do you think is the claim that BodyBio is making in that section of the video I index?

 

[Sherlock]

You are still not getting their claim.

No, it's that I don't care about their flimsy claim. Maybe you don't realize it, but you are constantly putting out the attitude that only you understand the supposedly deep and vast knowledge about supplements in the world, while everyone else is too dull to get it. The reality is that I stopped paying much attention to sales brochures long ago.

 

[adreno]

As a side note on

which is the kind (PPC) trumpeted by a certain Dr. N. Perricone since 10 years ago or more in his "ultra young looking skin" products, by which he is now ulra rich.

I don't even think there is any meaningful difference between PPC and PC, they are used synonymously in the literature.

 

[Sherlock]

I don't even think there is any meaningful difference between PPC and PC, they are used synonymously in the literature.

Well, the most expensive kinds of any supplement are sure to get the bestest testimonials

 

[pemone]

No, it's that I don't care about their flimsy claim. Maybe you don't realize it, but you are constantly putting out the attitude that only you understand the supposedly deep and vast knowledge about supplements in the world, while everyone else is too dull to get it. The reality is that I stopped paying much attention to sales brochures long ago.

All you needed to say from the beginning was that the claim made in this video is a flimsy claim that you don't believe is backed by research. I totally get your point of view.

The amount I know is vastly exceeded by the amount I don't, and no one is more aware of that than me. I do get frustrated when people start wandering off, and what could be a simple exchange ends up being winded and twisting and doesn't state end points of the discussion in a way that anyone can walk away with better information.

 

[pemone]

I am not interested in their marketing material. I like facts. Sorry we can't agree on this.

Nothing is more frustrating that asking the question "Is X true?" and then having someone at the end say "I don't have time to learn what X is".

But you had enormous amounts of time to argue continuously. Had you spent just three minutes to listen to the video you could have responded that you didn't believe their claim, stated the reason why, and that would have been much more productive to the issue at hand. And you would have spent less of your time as well.

 

[pemone]

And perhaps you shouldn't spend so much time telling other people how to argue or behave.

If someone posts a video that makes some claim and wants feedback about that, not listening to the video and then telling us all after long conversation that you have no time or interest to listen to the original claim is not polite.

I am not telling you how to argue. But what you did is just rude. And rather than factually addressing specific claims of the manufacturer, we just wasted time watching you exercise your ego with no worthwhile outcome.

 

[ahmo]

@pone These are all the links I have for Mito. I'm not sure if all of them are from radio, you'll see.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/mitochondria-101-part-2.29249/#post-446295 Mitochondria 101 Part 2

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/poisoning-the-mitochondria.27790/ Poisoning the Mitochondria

http://phoenixrising.me/archives/19805 In Brief: Mitochondria and ME article

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/mitochondrial-dysfunction.12947/ Mitochondrial Dysfunction

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/resveratrol-mitochondria.25884/ Reservatrol and Mitochondria

 

[pemone]

Talk about being rude. I have addressed the claims in my posts. You have dismissed this, referring to a marketing video. I, and others, have told you that phospholipids without lipids is nonsense, and so it doesn't matter what is said in their video or not.

You asked for experiences with phospholipids in your post. I have given my experience. You then claim I take the wrong form. I have argued that this is false. Bodybio is similar to phoschol, and other PPC products, which I have tried.

You claim that Bodybio has the fatty acids removed, which is false. It has the oil from lecithin removed, but phospholipids still contains fatty acids. You also claim it doesn't raise choline, which I have addressed as well.

All that is left is your parroting of marketing information. If you want to convince me that Bodybio is better (or different) than other PPC products (not lecithin), then do the work and present the evidence. Problem is, there is no evidence, and discussing marketing claims is meaningless.

I don't want to convince you of anything. I wanted you to understand what claim they were making, and if you felt it was snake oil then say that. At this point I do hear clearly that no one is believing their claim. And I agree they need to show some proof.

Instead of just tackling the points head on, what you did was just passive aggressive. Instead of a very straightforward exchange that I would have accepted, this just created a lot of noise because at every step you presented evidence that in fact looked like evidence for their claim not against it. When you show decomposition of a phospholipid to choline in a supplement that shows fat on its ingredient list, this exactly falls into BodyBio's marketing presentation. That was exactly what he said would happen in his presentation. So when you have a person showing the exact evidence that the marketing presentation is saying would be there, and combine that with your refusal to hear the presentation, it makes a simple exchange difficult.

I think testing this on my own might not be so hard. I could get a baseline test on choline after fasting, take a challenge test with a PC that does not remove the soy lecithin, then do a time staggered test of choline to get a rough time graph. I could repeat the same test the next day using BodyBio's product. If I get the same type of rise in choline and time decomposition then I know BodyBio's product is being digested to its components in the same way, and the main thrust of their marketing is false. If I don't get any rise in Choline at all with BodyBio, then something interesting is going on. At this point I'm not sure I need to go to that much trouble as the supplement seems to make me feel good, but I might return to that in future.

 

[undcvr]

Couple of observations about the video: the nature and pub med article he talks about mentions choline not Pcholine. All of the Pcholine you find in lecithin is Pcholine.

He also talks about how pcholine loses its ability to interact with water if it is surrounded by fats, this is not quite true. You can alway liposome it, he says so himself in the video and liposoming lecithin is very very easy, it is the basis of at-home DIY Liposome Encapsulation Technology. Just pour some water into the lecithin and stick it in a blender or stick blender to run for 10-20 sec. 30 maybe 50% of it will liposome and then if you want even more from it you can use a sonic jewelry cleaner. Way way cheaper than buying anything from him.

Also all the companies out there that sells PPC are using soy which leaves a left over of oleic acid in the final product.

I still don't understand what u mean by polyenyl, you stick several double bonds onto the Pcholine? Where? I have a backgrd in organic chem. What is most suspicious about the whole thing is that there is no diagram on the internet anywhere on what a PPC molecule would look like? Just for my own benefit I would like to see it.

My gut bet is that it is just a another concentrated pcholine supplement so that you don't consume too much fatty acids trying to supplement with pcholine.

http://www.nutrasal.com/phoschol.html

P.S. His video does not say say how you strip pcholine of its fatty tails.

 

[undcvr]

Update: I found a company that has a diagram on it and makes it.

http://shop.nutrasal.com/PhosChol_900_Capsules_p/phos900-100.htm

PPC is actually 1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine. The good doctor may not quite know what he is talking about becos if it is true then PPC actually has linoleic acid bound in the C1 and C2 positions of the molecule. If you strip away these 2 fatty tails then it is not PPC anymore. Also I suspect the process for stripping them is prohibitively expensive to market, that is why all pcholine products out there contain fats.

You NEED the fatty tails to penetrate the cells and incorporate the pcholine into the cells, w/o the tails it won't work. Someone correct me on this.