Patent filing for the use of nitric oxide with or without B-cell depletion in CFS

[Gingergrrl]

Just curious about why you wouldn't tolerate beet juice--is it something that is high histamine?

@Sushi Beets are not high histamine as far as I know,... I just despise them !

There are some contraindications for nitroglycerin / nitrates listed here.

@Hip thank you for that link and the issue I am contraindicated on is low BP but my cardio seems to think it is not a big deal. I see him on Fri.

 

[gregh286]

No, I bought it directly from a chemist. It is slow release form. The lowest dose was 40 mg and I took one. It was too much to start, it lowered my BP to 80/40 mm Hg from 110/65 in two hours. This caused me strong headache and pounding heart when I get up. I drank salty water to raise my BP. Today, I opened a capsule and emptied half of the granules in it, so I took roughly around 20 mg. I also took Florinef to raise my blood volume and I feel much better.

The day before I started taking Isosorbid mononitrat, I had to go out and walk a few kilometers because I don't have a car. This walk triggered PEM as usual and it was supposed to make my life miserable for a week but only one day after taking Isosorbid 50% of muscle pain and 80% of brain fog is gone. I think better blood flow clears lactic acid.

Jeez you could have killed.yourself....your blood pressure is not even remotely high do begin with.
Let us know your progress on half.dose.
What I do notice strange about this....when I am in bad.crash my pulse feels very weak...at wrist....chest..wherever. but BP remains constant. It's baffling.
TCM relies heavily on 3 finger wrist pulse to evaluate client .

 

[anne_likes_red]

I realised beetroot juice is what's being used to offset some of the symptoms of hypoxia in climbers at high altitude. I guess that could contribute to the feel good factor too.

 

[MeSci]

Thank you very much for the link. It is a big database, it will take time to read all of it but according the my first searches, almost all of the papers from Turkey are about Fibromyalgia. There are four papers about CFS, only one from the city where I live (Istanbul) and it is from a military hospital, so I don't have access to those doctors. They tried hyperbaric oxygen (HBO2) therapy on 15 CFS patients according to Fukuda criteria.

Have you done a word search of the database using the search term 'Turkey'? There are email addresses for the lead authors, I think.

 

[Sushi]

Beets are not high histamine as far as I know,... I just despise them !

I don't much like cooked beets, pickled beets, etc., but freshly prepared beet juice is quite different, kind of nectar-like. If you are ever at a fresh juice bar, you might ask to try a sip, just to check it out. Juicing at home is a bit messy but the end result is great. I had forgotten about how good fresh juice tastes until it came up in this thread.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I don't much like cooked beets, pickled beets, etc., but freshly prepared beet juice is quite different, kind of nectar-like. If you are ever at a fresh juice bar, you might ask to try a sip, just to check it out. Juicing at home is a bit messy but the end result is great. I had forgotten about how good fresh juice tastes until it came up in this thread.

@Sushi I can't imagine that I could tolerate beet juice but stranger things have happened...

 

[MeSci]

I don't much like cooked beets, pickled beets, etc., but freshly prepared beet juice is quite different, kind of nectar-like. If you are ever at a fresh juice bar, you might ask to try a sip, just to check it out. Juicing at home is a bit messy but the end result is great. I had forgotten about how good fresh juice tastes until it came up in this thread.

I love cooked beetroot! Bought some yesterday and roasted it in the oven while roasting potatoes and onions. I could so easily O-D on them!

Shame it probably won't cure me, but at least I'll enjoy trying...

 

[melihtas]

Let us know your progress on half.dose.

Four days after starting Isosorbide, I got intestinal infection and it was really bad. I had vomiting, diarrhea, fever, headache, etc. So I had to stop taking Isosorbide. I am better now but still weak. I will try it again when I am stable.

 

[MeSci]

I love cooked beetroot! Bought some yesterday and roasted it in the oven while roasting potatoes and onions. I could so easily O-D on them!

Shame it probably won't cure me, but at least I'll enjoy trying...

Damn - looks like I can't tolerate it. I now remember that it messes up my gut. But you know what - I am still going to finish what I have - can't stand waste, even though it might be making other stuff go to waste!

EDIT - have seen sense and the beetroot is now in the compost. As gut function appears to be fundamental to my illness, and I am currently feeling PEM-type grotty (although it could be due to over-exertion), I would be an idiot to carry on doing anything that might mess it up!

 

[Hip]

I haven't got time at the moment to look into this more thoroughly, but this study on nitrate intolerance is very interesting:

Abstract 5648: Epigenetic Basis of Nitrate Tolerance: Fundamental Role of Protein Acetylation

The study indicates that the build-up of tolerance to nitrates is due to epigenetic mechanisms — specifically due to the epigenetic mechanism of histone acetylation and deacetylation.

So for those ME/CFS patients who have benefited in the past from nitrate treatment, but developed a nitrate tolerance, reseting this epigenetic mechanism might be a way to eliminate this tolerance and reset your body.



Some Brief Notes On Histone Acetylation And Deacetylation

Histones act as spools, and the DNA in the genome is wound around these histone spools. When a histone spool acetylated (ie, an acetyl group is attached to it), this increases the expression of the DNA wound around that particular spool.

Conversely, removing acetyl groups attached to histones inhibits access to the genes, effectively silencing them.

So in this way, histone acetylation and deacetylation acts as an epigenetic mechanism to promote or inhibit gene expression.

 

[Hip]

Solution for the Tolerance Problem of Vasodilating Nitrate Drugs

Whereas vasodilating nitrate drugs like nitroglycerin, isosorbide dinitrate and isosorbide mononitrate (which vasodilate by increasing nitric oxide) unfortunately have tolerance and loss-of-effect problems, this study demonstrated that the vasodilating drug nicorandil does not produce tolerance, and does not lose its effect.

Like these other drugs, nicorandil vasodilates by increasing nitric oxide, but for some reason, is not subject to the loss of effect problem.

So nicorandil might be a good drug to try for vasodilation purposes in ME/CFS.

There is a thread on nicorandil here.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Hip I actually just read the entire thread last night re: Nicorandil and found it very interesting. I googled it to learn that Nicorandil is not FDA approved and not available in the United States. In addition it said it is not indicated for people with low blood volume and low blood pressure so I don't think I would be a candidate. But it sounds potentially very helpful for people without low BP who do not live in the US! Glad you posted this!

 

[gregh286]

Could it be that dangerous? What can happen? Low BP? I've tried 2x3g of L-arginine before without any side effects.

Look at this:
Oral supplementation with a combination of l-citrulline and l-arginine rapidly increases plasma l-arginine concentration and enhances NO bioavailability

Here is another one:
Pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic properties of oral L-citrulline and L-arginine: impact on nitric oxide metabolism

Hi Deleder2k
I started this stuff today: http://www.amazon.de/L-ARGININ-CITRULLIN-3600-HOCHDOSIERT-Vitamin-Folsäure/dp/B00KB07VBU

It has 3g arginie, 600mg of citrulline amongst other BCAA.
I take 10 a day. (5 X 2).
Will let you know if it makes improvements.

 

[deleder2k]

Let us know if you feel better or not.

Viel glück!

 

[Marky90]

I want to read this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2562584/

Its a full paper.

However here is my take on alcohol. It drives production of free radicals from the mitochondria. So if NO and radicals are both raised, so is peroxynitrite. Its not the way to go for most of us, though it does raise questions as to whether there might be a subset who benefit.

And right you are - I am one of those!

 

[deleder2k]

I think it is quite easy. Both alcohol and nitroglycerin dilute our blood vessels. They both relieve symptoms for many PWME. Fluge and Mella's hypothesis is that some autoantibody leads to NOS dysfunction which impairs the regulation of the blood flow. I feel much better when i drink alcohol, and I guess I would feel much better if I tried nitro too.

 

[alex3619]

- Pure symptomatic effect of isosorbide mononitrate. If exaggerating to much (exercise...) some ME symptoms recur.

I am on isosorbide mononitrate right now, 60mg as a starting dose, about to take my third dose. My sleep is really messed up right now, but I will see how it goes and report back. Ok, third dose taken.

I do get an almost headache all day long. It goes away just before my next dose.

 

[deleder2k]

I am on isosorbide mononitrate right now, 60mg as a starting dose, about to take my third dose. My sleep is really messed up right now, but I will see how it goes and report back. Ok, third dose taken.

I do get an almost headache all day long. It goes away just before my next dose.

Do you take anything for it? I think one recommendation is to use 30 mg for a few days before jumping up to 60 mg to avoid that massive headache.

 

[alex3619]

I don't have a massive headache, its way below the level I would take painkillers. Its annoying rather than a real issue. It is however a constant headache.

 

[melihtas]

I am on isosorbide mononitrate right now, 60mg as a starting dose, about to take my third dose. My sleep is really messed up right now, but I will see how it goes and report back. Ok, third dose taken.

I do get an almost headache all day long. It goes away just before my next dose.

I started again two weeks ago with 20 mg because my normal bp is already low. I am on 50 mg now. I have very limited improvements.

The headache was really annoying but it was completely gone after one week. So, don't give up because of the headache, it is temporary.