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Oxymatrine withdrawl

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Hi there,

Has anyone who crashed had extreme withdrawal coming off Oxymatrine? I am suffering terribly and it's annilihating my energy levels. I'm taking 3 seperate stimulants but they are barely having any effect, although they are working enough to keep me from collapsing etc. I have been to my doctor and got full blood work just in case my thyroid has become fu****. I am more interested to know how long peoples withdrawal took when they came off Oxymatrine. I've just gone down to one tablet yesterday as I attempt to come off it fully. My muscles in my arms are completely weak and fatigued. I was suffering from severe sleepiness on rising, working and at around 4 and 5pm every day but that's now stopped (my money is on adrenal fatigue).

Even though I think the oxymatrine might have been working as a treatment, the risks are just too great that I could end up severely sick without Dr Chia's supervision. Plus lots of people come off oxymatrine after time and relapse which makes me wonder what the overall efficacy is. Even so I think it's a promising treatment I just can't take those kinds of risks.

Any information anyone has on the drug withdrawal effects, even if you had withdrawal on valtrex and valcyte it might give me some kind of idea of what to expect. I am titrating down slowly!! But by Chia's standards I get the impression 400mg is too much to come down from at once?

Thanks,
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,320
There is no proven efficiency of oxymatrine in the sense that it would be supported by placebo controlled trials, so I wouldn't even call it a drug. Dr Chia has found that it helps about half of his patients, but this is based on self reports which don't account for the placebo effect. It's just another herb and herbs can be bought without prescription or any supervision, so in that sense I don't think it's particularly risky to use without supervision (of course ME/CFS patients may be much more sensitive to anything, including herbs).

In my experience oxymatrine is a lot milder than many drugs I've tried including valtrex and I didn't have much problems coming off it. The main benefit is likely some mild immune stimulation/modulation, the concentration of these herbs that can be achieved in the body is typically not high enough that they would have any practical antiviral effects in vivo.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Your right JES. But I did find it hugely stimulated the immune system (in me) and this was not a placebo. I was hungry every 1 to 2 hours and most of the night as well. I had extra energy but it's what I refer to as dirty energy because it is a bit like walking on thin ice. Whereas the herbs I was taking more which I hope to go back onto are more like walking on a thick wood floor you have a lot more support but you could still find a termite ridden floorboard.

I realise everyone is different I mean it's obvious we all have different issues amongst the mis diagnoses etc. I am just worried it's done some damage as my body is just a mess and if I come off it completely the fatigue is crushing. I'm taking cordyceps ginseng astragalus and reishi/shitakki for now to get over it.

Thanks for the comments. But I disagree about the risk. I think it's extremely risky without a doctor because we all react very differently. I'm glad I tried it but at the same time not sure it was worthit. I wish I could get valtrex but in the meantime I'll just stick to andrographis paniculata.

Thanks
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Even though I think the oxymatrine might have been working as a treatment, the risks are just too great that I could end up severely sick without Dr Chia's supervision. Plus lots of people come off oxymatrine after time and relapse which makes me wonder what the overall efficacy is.

If oxymatrine was working for you, presumably fighting off your viral infections, on discontinuation your viral infections may start to proliferate again, thereby making you feel worse.


Plus lots of people come off oxymatrine after time and relapse which makes me wonder what the overall efficacy is.

Relapse on oxymatrine discontinuation is more common in females than males. Dr Chia says men can stop taking it after 3 to 6 months (though here he says to take it for 12 months); but women usually have to continue taking oxymatrine, otherwise they relapse and get worse again.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
I know Hip I remember you telling me. But the issue I have is it's not clear what the risks are. Even though I felt better I did crash while taking it and only then did I lower the dose. I see your point about the virus taking over again though. It's hard to decide what to do in many respects.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Also how do we know another virus isn't being reactivated like ebv or hsv1. Dr Chia mentions the latter appearing in one or two patients. I'll try another tablet and see if my body reacts to it. When I came off it and then went back on it the first tablet produced a temperature and a pick up in energy. The subsequent tablets had a lesser overall effect but that's probably to be expected. I'm only at 2 a day.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
But the issue I have is it's not clear what the risks are.

According to Dr Chia, the main risks are the triggering of an autoimmune condition in those who are prone to such things (those with a personal history or family history of autoimmunity). It's not good in those with known seizure disorders either.

Some info in this post.

This extensive article on oxymatrine risks and safety says it is probably best avoided in young children and during pregnancy.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
That's kind of my worry. There is a family history of RA and Chrons (or at least chrons + other bowel issues). So I do worry it could be doing damage as well as potential good. I have read the links - thank you.

There's just so much we don't understand about this disease. Although your theory about a viral proliferation on cessation of dosing combined with a toxin dump from the virus into the body does make sense. I mean I haven't felt like this for 3 years. That's how bad it is.

Also some symptoms seem to have disappeared, but I wonder if it's a coincidence. I'm no longer extremely thirsty and even though I feel very out of it and disorientated the dizziness is not really present. Plus my brain is functioning but my cognition is slow and my motor skills are slow, I'm struggling to find the right words when speaking and the fatigue is pervasive. My muscles are just not recovering from exertion. Whereas before it wasn't nearly this bad.

I did manage to get blood tests run on the NHS yesterday though, which included liver and kidneys, so that would give me extra peace of mind that I am not doing any damage. Do you think I should stay at 2 tablets until my symptoms get easier, or stay at 2 tablets and then increase to 3? I hear some stories of people on 3 tablets and some on 6 tablets to function, but lots of those people are saying they crash completely if they come off the tablets. I agree with you about men and women, male biology definitely reacts differently to this and possibly other subsets of ME, god knows why that is.

Also I have an aunt with ME which makes me think it is potentially not viral and it could be a genetic issue and the oxy is simply making me feel terrible. As when I took sertraline I had a similar reaction, slow and yet pervasive buildup of muscle fatigue in the legs and then the rest of the body. So I titrated down and came off it, I was on a negligible dosing.

Saying that andrographis used to make me feel terrible and then when I got over that I felt great. So it may just be that I need to hold on.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
That's kind of my worry. There is a family history of RA and Chrons (or at least chrons + other bowel issues).

If there is a family history of rheumatoid arthritis, then that would be a concern, as Dr Chia noted that rheumatoid arthritis can be triggered by oxymatrine. I believe Dr Chia does not prescribe oxymatrine in such cases, because of the possible RA risk.



Although your theory about a viral proliferation on cessation of dosing combined with a toxin dump from the virus into the body does make sense. I mean I haven't felt like this for 3 years. That's how bad it is.

If you want to come off oxymatrine, you might perhaps consider an oxymatrine taper over say a week or so, just to give your immune system a chance to adjust, allowing it go back to dealing with your viruses without the help of oxymatrine.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks for the responses. I'll have a think - if it is working part of me is loathed to just dump my progress. Also I could titrate off slowly in 8 months to prevent dependency etc. Some people are saying Dr chia has got them titrating at 50 to 100mg whereas these tablets I take are 400mg each. Maybe the titrating for those that respond to the treatment is important.

I do have family history of osteo in the immediate family and ra in the extended. So it is a little risky from that perspective.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Also I could titrate off slowly in 8 months to prevent dependency etc.

I took oxymatrine years ago but had no benefit from it, even at 900-1200 mg a day for a year or so. I don't remember having bad side effects from coming off it but I might have. It was a long time ago.

I do have to taper off almost any supplement I use VERY slowly because I often get side effects from doing so. The worst of which is feeling anxious and hyper, with increased energy and insomnia.

The increase in energy is good to a point but then it becomes too intense and very uncomfortable and like I said can also cause insomnia. So it's not uncommon for me to takes weeks to taper off a supplement or longer.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,335
Location
Southern California
my money is on adrenal fatigue
Do you mean you think you have adrenal fatigue right now? or are you referring to when you had
severe sleepiness on rising, working and at around 4 and 5pm every day
which you say has stopped now?

Adrenal glandulars have helped me a LOT with adrenal fatigue over the years. I've primarily taken Drenamin or Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process. I was almost bedridden at one time from the fatigue and Drenatrophin pulled me out of it. I had to take about 3 times the recommended dose at that time because I was so weak but within about 3 days I could feel my energy coming back. it felt like a miracle. My chiropractor who does muscle testing helped me with this. I'm currently on a very small maintenance dose.

FWIW, I took oxymatrine several years ago for a couple of months and it did nothing for me, good or bad, and I just stopped it finally and had no withdrawal. But we're all different! I did try inosine after that, and it did help me a little. It gave me a little boost in energy. I took it for several months, I can't remember how long, but eventually just stopped. It didn't seem to be helping any more.

I do take andrographis just about daily. It's the best thing I've found to help my immune system.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. I do seem to be the only one having strange effects coming off these tablets it seems. I think one person suffered a crash. I've emailed them on the forum but they are not a regular user.

Thanks for your update Mary and others. Very helpful. I am wondering if it's simply circumstantial and because I went through a period of increased hormonal and adrenal taxing (lots of adrenaline and poor sleep for a week) this basically sucked my adrenals dry. Mary are you able to link me to anything on Amazon that I can purchase? I do feel like I might be getting a little better taking adaptogens but your approach seems more efficient.

I think I need to take oxy for another 4 weeks before I will be able to figure out whether it's working or just making me feel worse. I do still seem to have really bad withdrawal coming off it though but I think Hip is right and the viral load may just be going crackers because I'm not taking it.

Thanks all,
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
And sorry @Mary yes the sudden sleepiness that was plaguing me all day long has now gone. I went to bed last night a little high and I woke up about 6.30am thismorning far too awake. So the adrenal exhaustion could be accurate. Although I do think it's combined with a pathogen proliferating when I come off oxy too.

But I was falling asleep all day every day everywhere. That only stopped on Tuesday and I haven't had that problem since. Normally with ME I get crippling fatigue combined with muscular fatigue, dizziness, sore throat and aches and pains, this needing to sleep all the time isn;t normally as major symptom. I got thyroid tests on one of my worse days so I am hoping it might show up in that so I can at least know I am not going mad!!

Thanks,
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks Mary. Knowing our ME luck it will come back healthy. I do wonder what it will be like in 50 years when they have the treatments and tests. It will be great for the people that need it.