Outdoor toxins of particular relevance to mold illness patients

[frozenborderline]

https://paradigmchange.me/wp/outdoor-toxins/

There is a lot of focus on building mold in me/cfs but often outdoor toxins are underlooked, because they are harder to study. But there is a large volume of anecdote suggesting they matter in me/cfs as much as building mold.

 

[lagarto]

This makes sense. I'm from Norway (south-east), and wintering on southern Gran Canaria is extremely helpful - enough last year to stop a slow slide downwards and start a slow climb up. Southern Gran Canaria has wind from the sea most of the time, in addition to being dry and warm.

 

[frozenborderline]

Lisa petrison has noticed that seemingly Norway has elevated prevalence of me/cfs. Since we don't tend to think that wet/dark automatically equals bad toxins I wonder if ther were bad chemicals there that wrecked the biome. People have done really well in subarctic and Arctic places. Someone went into remission in Iceland and I've heard good things about the remote parts of Sweden.

Haha I just watched the movie "midsommar" set in halsingland Sweden with a weird pagan cult but all I could think is how pristine the outdoors looked there. However I think it was actually filmed in Budapest.

 

[frozenborderline]

I think it is important to point out that Erik Johnson, who basically invented this method of mold avoidance, doesn't really use these names, as he is more focused on a physics effect than specific toxins and also thinks these names can turn researchers off.

I totally agree with the latter and I'd never say something like "mystery toxin" to a researcher, but I've found these descriptions of specific toxins in specific places to match up to experience to a very surprising degree despite initially being skeptical.

We got our first big taste of "mystery toxin", the outdoor me/cfs associated toxin , in winter storms in Vegas and Albuquerque in November. We had had runins with it before but it's particularly bad in the west during winter and it took big doses to definitively say "oh wow this is real". I think the only toxin on this list I can't say I can recognize is the toxin associated with fire retardants, but I haven't gone out of my way to learn.

 

[lagarto]

What's with Norway, I wonder? We have had a major outbreak-type thing, water contamination played a role there, I think. We have an aluminum industry, but that's hardly the entire country. In fact, much of the country isn't very populated. Oh, and the oil extraction offshore may play a role. And the higher standard of living, maybe? I guess that would contribute in both directions. But also, we seem to have a higher rate of diagnosis than most places, so there's that.

I get looking at something and just thinking how pristine it looks - I guess you will start notice, after hunting the clean places for a while! We have lots of faraway woodlands as well - and mountains, of course. Though it feels sometimes like everything is under threat (presumably because so much of it really is).

 

[Rufous McKinney]

What's with Norway, I wonder? We have had a major outbreak-type thing, water contamination played a role there, I think.

the Netflix show- Ragnarok- is dealing with a similar theme!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Haha I just watched the movie "midsommar" set in halsingland Sweden with a weird pagan cult but all I could think is how pristine the outdoors looked there. However I think it was actually filmed in Budapest.

As I am eating this piece of Cod.... came in a package from Norway...actually shipped from Latvia.

What the heck did this fish swim thru? And how close to Russia is Latvia? And how can I be eating it now?

*****

Generally don't eat much ocean fish and want nothing to do with that karma. It got here by accident. Won't do that again.

 

[frozenborderline]

I get looking at something and just thinking how pristine it looks - I guess you will start notice, after hunting the clean places for a while! We have lots of faraway woodlands as well - and mountains, of course. Though it feels sometimes like everything is under threat (presumably because so much of it really is).

I have always felt like my experiences lined up with what I expected when I look at a picture of outdoor places , so I have that intuitive ability , although the same isn't true for me with evaluating buildings or cars from photographs. Presumably there is some intuitive and evolutionary conserved way to evaluate Flora but not totally artificial environments.

 

[frozenborderline]

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So in wildlands with undisturbed soil profiles- we have Soil cryptobiotic crusts.

https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2014_warren_s002.pdf

These are ecologically tremendously important mix of organisms who occupy the upper few millimeters of soil (soil is a living thing). This ecosystem is destroyed thru plowing or bulldozing soil. Humans kill soil and turn it to dirt.

Dirt does not typically have crusts, but may have spores or propagules from the soil crusts.

Mold is a type of fungi, and fungi are part of these crusts. Cyanobacteria are also very important.

These crusts are most apparent in winter when hydrated...you can SEE the dark blue green soil algae (now cyanob)...in between other cool organisms including mosses, lichen, etc.

But a mold growing in soil crusts is not likely to be the species of mold growing in your drain pipe.

So assumptions that 100% of anything called mold is making some sensitive folks sicker-I merely wonder about that..what exactly in mold IS it...would be certainly an interesting question to answer.

 

[lagarto]

Presumably there is some intuitive and evolutionary conserved way to evaluate Flora but not totally artificial environments.

That makes sense.

Also, totally not watching that movie, haha

 

[lagarto]

So assumptions that 100% of anything called mold is making some sensitive folks sicker-I merely wonder about that..what exactly in mold IS it...would be certainly an interesting question to answer.

I don't think that's generally the assumption, though - more like, different people tolerate different things to different degrees?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Haha I just watched the movie "midsommar" set in halsingland Sweden with a weird pagan cult but all I could think is how pristine the outdoors looked there.

Hummm...that intrigued me. Where did you view this?

I'm curious- my Swedish husband....his Grandfather's house is at one of the Swedish Outdoor Museums.

What a trip to discover- a grass covered one room house i sitting there from 1869, with my husband's grandfathers Name on the Sign, and a grass roof like I dreamed of having my whole child life...(the one with a cow on top) only this has two GEESE.

So that location looks like one of these Swedish parks. Then they do alot of historical reinactment at these places.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I don't think that's generally the assumption, though - more like, different people tolerate different things to different degrees?

I mean- not all MOLDS are equal.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Also, totally not watching that movie, haha

Wikipedia does say Budapest...

wonder where I could see it...but if is truely a SLASHER film..then I d likely pass!

 

[lagarto]

I mean- not all MOLDS are equal.

Yes, I got that, I was just super unprecise when answering - "things" is a really silly word to use, and yet it sneaks into my language all the time. Sorry!

 

[frozenborderline]

Hummm...that intrigued me. Where did you view this?

It's free if you have Amazon prime video

 

[frozenborderline]

Wikipedia does say Budapest...

wonder where I could see it...but if is truely a SLASHER film..then I d likely pass!

It is sort of a horror film but also it is not as scary as some I've watched ! Part of it is the building of atmosphere and beauty that is the backdrop for the horror.

 

[frozenborderline]

So in wildlands with undisturbed soil profiles- we have Soil cryptobiotic crusts.

https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2014_warren_s002.pdf

These are ecologically tremendously important mix of organisms who occupy the upper few millimeters of soil (soil is a living thing). This ecosystem is destroyed thru plowing or bulldozing soil. Humans kill soil and turn it to dirt.

Dirt does not typically have crusts, but may have spores or propagules from the soil crusts.

Mold is a type of fungi, and fungi are part of these crusts. Cyanobacteria are also very important.

These crusts are most apparent in winter when hydrated...you can SEE the dark blue green soil algae (now cyanob)...in between other cool organisms including mosses, lichen, etc.

But a mold growing in soil crusts is not likely to be the species of mold growing in your drain pipe.

So assumptions that 100% of anything called mold is making some sensitive folks sicker-I merely wonder about that..what exactly in mold IS it...would be certainly an interesting question to answer.

People also talk about soil cyanobacteria in the mold avoidance community, a lot. And I think the presumption is similar to mold, that it's everywhere , but possibly only pathogenic in certain circumstances, when the soil is disturbed or when chemicals or industry interact with soil cyanobacteria. Personally there's something in the soil in parts of New Mexico especially that bothers me, it's often worse when the ground melts or when there are monsoon rains in those areas, hence why I have no trouble believing it's related to cyano. The cyanobacteria toxins seem nasty but seem to cross contaminate less than the other toxins mentioned. There is some of this pretty prevalent in tucumcari, ojo caliente, parts of the Taos area. Some have also had trouble with this in parts of the Nevada and California desert.

 

[frozenborderline]

I don't think that's generally the assumption, though - more like, different people tolerate different things to different degrees?

People tolerate things to different degrees indeed, unsure if that's genetics or previous exposures priming people to react differently, or other vulnerability factors (cci could cause impaired csf flow which is important for detox!).

But also yes, not all molds/toxins are created equal.
Also the vulnerability gets worse the sicker one gets. Hence why I always advise people to try avoidance before they get as sick as I am.