Osteopathy experiences

lior

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Likes
5,205
Location
London
Hello, I've just had my first osteopathy treatment and I thought it would be useful to discuss with others what your experiences were - what happened, how long it takes to see positive impact, any problems etc.

I've found an experienced one who has trained in the Perrin technique but has not renewed his licence for it because he's reducing his patient intake (he's in his 60s I'd guess). He did cranial osteopathy on me, and will use what he knows of the Perrin technique in his practice too. So it's not just the Perrin technique I'm getting, he knows about a big range of stuff.

I am generally sceptical of these things but I did feel pressure and release during the session, and today (the day after) I'm experiencing odd little pains I don't normally feel. So it has had an effect. Whether there's any long term positive effect remains to be seen, but I am a little less sceptical now I see that it IS doing something.
 

Wolfcub

Moderator
Messages
3,013
Likes
7,533
Location
SW UK
No I haven't tried osteopathy for ME/CFS.
Or chiropractic either. I had not thought of it.... and have never had cranial osteopathy. Though it might be helpful. Do post back if you notice any benefits @lior You may notice things after some time has gone by, and the adjustment has settled down.
 
Messages
62
Likes
158
Hi, @lior. My daughter has been going to an osteopath similar to the one you're seeing. He was Perrin trained, but he no longer registers with the Perrin program because he found he was getting overwhelmed with ME patients and he didn't want his practice to become only about ME. The treatment my daughter had was pretty much 90% Perrin with some general osteopathy.

Daughter started treatment about a year ago. After the initial appointment she spiked a fever and felt generally very unwell. This made me think it was worth continuing with. Something was happening! Perrin technique isn't the only thing she's done, but it has been a big part. A year down the road, she's significantly more functional. I think because she's young--16--and we started Perrin stuff very early on, it had the best possible chance of helping. In my mind, it's what prevented her from getting worse. She was on a downward trajectory until we started it and ever since it's been a gradual upward trend. I think if you've had ME for years and years and you're older, the chances of major gains could be slim. Depends on your circumstances. Some people know their issues are mechanical. They have EDS or have been in a car accident etc. In those cases I think it could be helpful at any stage.

Happy to answer any questions!
 

lior

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Likes
5,205
Location
London
@Celandine best of luck for your daughter's recovery.
I didn't have a fever like your daughter, just feeling the normal PEM symptoms, plus those odd pains, and I want to be in better postures, poor posture feels more uncomfortable.

I'm almost 30, been sick 3 years. I don't have EDS, and my trigger for getting ME was a virus, but I have had a couple of concussions and a small car accident, so if there was any lasting damage from that, perhaps osteopathy will help that. I don't know if those accidents would have contributed to me getting ME. The osteopath seemed to think they were significant.
Next session is tomorrow, I shall update :)
 
Messages
62
Likes
158
@lior Yes, the accidents could be significant if there was any damage to the neck or spine. With all the stuff that's been coming out recently around Cranial Cervical Instability etc. and people actually getting cured by fixing that issue, I think osteopathy and Perrin technique makes more sense than ever. It certainly can't harm.
My daughter hasn't experienced any kind of physical trauma. No car accidents or anything. When her osteopath first examined her he noted she had a flattened thoracic spine and he said that it's amazing that almost all the ME patients he sees exhibit this trait.

Daughter now only sees her osteopath about once a month. Her PEM is so much better than it was a year ago. POTS symptoms and sleep issues are her biggest things now. I'd almost say now she has POTS rather than ME as PEM is the defining ME symptom and hers is so mild now. Over the past month or so she caught her first cold in two years. Another sign that the immune system is normalising, I hope. Feel like I'm jinxing her just writing this! It all feels very fragile.

Wishing you lots of luck. Keep us posted!
 

tyson oberle

Senior Member
Messages
137
Likes
108
Location
tampa, florida
@lior Yes, the accidents could be significant if there was any damage to the neck or spine. With all the stuff that's been coming out recently around Cranial Cervical Instability etc. and people actually getting cured by fixing that issue, I think osteopathy and Perrin technique makes more sense than ever. It certainly can't harm.
My daughter hasn't experienced any kind of physical trauma. No car accidents or anything. When her osteopath first examined her he noted she had a flattened thoracic spine and he said that it's amazing that almost all the ME patients he sees exhibit this trait.

Daughter now only sees her osteopath about once a month. Her PEM is so much better than it was a year ago. POTS symptoms and sleep issues are her biggest things now. I'd almost say now she has POTS rather than ME as PEM is the defining ME symptom and hers is so mild now. Over the past month or so she caught her first cold in two years. Another sign that the immune system is normalising, I hope. Feel like I'm jinxing her just writing this! It all feels very fragile.

Wishing you lots of luck. Keep us posted!
What is a "flattened thoracic spine" and how does a person know if he or she has it?
 

lior

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Likes
5,205
Location
London
My notes from today:
- Osteopath said that the model they have for ME/CFS is that there isn't good lymphatic drainage from the head, leading to neurotoxicity.
- Last time he just did work to manipulate the structure, this week he added some lymphatic drainage too. So I may experience extra fatigue in addition to discomfort in particular positions.
- If the structure of my body has problems, that's going to have some sort of impact on everything else. So by making that better, it may help my other symptoms.
- Patterns in symptoms are clues, but there are a lot of symptoms that are junk data. Put all the symptoms on the table, keep an eye on things, see if more patterns emerge.
- Focus on the processes to treat the causes, rather than the symptoms.

- Started at my head. Said my CRI (cranial rhythmic impulse) has improved. So he decided to work on lymphatic drainage too today. Put his hands under my back and neck to work on the ribcage. Then my collar bone and towards my neck. Then ended at my head.
- It still feels bizarre to me to lie still in a dimly lit room while someone is touching me but mostly staying still, barely moving. Don't really know what's going to happen next (though he does tell me just before). I know what the deal is with massages, but this isn't a massage, it's something new. It's intimate yet it's with a stranger. It involves a lot of trust, especially since I don't understand quite why/how it's working.
- I got an intense pain in my head when he did a certain movement, but it only lasted for as long as he did the movement for, like 2 seconds.
- When he had his hands under my back and neck, it was like there was a tide going in and out. He barely moved his hands yet I still felt it.
- Headachy on leaving the treatment.

- Doing osteopathy involves knowledge of anatomy + learning to do the movements + esoteric knowledge
 
Messages
62
Likes
158
Perrin talks about all this stuff in detail in his book. You can get it on Amazon. Worth reading if you want to understand his approach.

@tyson oberle I can't see the flattening myself because I have no osteopathic training, but it's about the curvature of the thoracic spine area being less than normal. I think this is just something you're born with and something that must make you more susceptible to ME by impeding lymphatic flow and drainage. Have a look at the below linked articles/interviews or Perrin's book, where he talks about this in a lot more detail. There are pictures of it in his book.

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...rin-point-ray-perrin-me-cfs-and-fibromyalgia/

https://www.theenergyblueprint.com/perrin-technique/

@lior Yes, it's the lymphatic drainage that causes the biggest reaction at first. Lots of toxic buildup being released into the bloodstream. Sounds like your guy is going slow, so hopefully you won't feel too awful. My osteo recommended taking milk thistle to support the liver to deal with detoxing during the treatment. Also, drink lots of water to keep things flushing through.
 

lior

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Likes
5,205
Location
London
@Celandine yes he is going slow, that's right.

Pretty unpleasant headache right now though, and quite a bit of discomfort in my body and nausea. He said it could be 48 hours and I should under-perform. And drink water. It's quite annoying to not be able to lie down in my normal positions. I have to find new positions that are going to be comfortable.
Had some weed brownie which can help with pain but it's not working for me today :(
 

Strawberry

Senior Member
Messages
1,076
Likes
2,170
Location
Seattle, WA USA
@lior There is a poster here named @Dainty that has had much success long term with osteopaths. She rarely posts here any more, but you can site-search her name and osteopath and read much of her history. Or you could PM her which should notify her. My tag probably won't. She is about your age, and incredibly helpful! She used to be severe, but now well enough to work, and also got married.

I've been wanting to try osteopathy based solely on her experiences, but still need to get my MRI done and properly read.
 

Strawberry

Senior Member
Messages
1,076
Likes
2,170
Location
Seattle, WA USA
I'd like to investigate chiari, CCI/AAI, or tethered cord before I get further treatment. I am diagnosed hypermobile, and those treatments could help if I can get a proper diagnosis.
 

lior

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Likes
5,205
Location
London
Notes from today:
Recommended magnesium chloride instead of epsom salts in bath - better uptake of magnesium - more bioavailable.

Rather than chasing symptoms, and feeding into the vicious circle, we can feed the health that's in the body already, and feed into the benign circle. Sometimes when you poke at the problems they can get worse instead of better. He says that aside from my having ME/CFS, I am young & healthy, which is true. I like the idea of feeding into the health that I already have.

Working on adreacorticol system today: adrenaline, cortisone, sympathetic nervous system. As well as parasympathetic nervous system.
Put his hands under and over my adrenal glands. Said they are not healthy.
Put his hands at my tailbone and neck - ends of spine.
Put his hands on my head. Later moved two fingers to third eye.

Said that instead of symptom reduction I may use my energy in more activity.
For me at this point, I'm not sure if I pushed myself this past week because I wanted to, or because I was a little better, and whether or not that is from osteopathy. I know I tend to push myself too much when I am slightly better because it's hard to find the new limit, then I crash.

I am not feeling nauseous like last time. After the session last time I felt very unwell for that evening. Right now I feel ok. A bit achy in my back, but nothing extreme.

@Strawberry best of luck to you, this journey is very long, it takes such a long time to be well enough to get anything done. My osteopath seemed to find it necessary to check my diagnosis of ME/CFS with the osteopathic way of diagnosing things. So perhaps osteopaths can diagnose some of the things you are talking about, at least for the purposes of any osteopathy treatments. I'm under the impression that most doctors wouldn't take the diagnoses of osteopaths seriously though.
 
Last edited:

lior

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Likes
5,205
Location
London
Notes from today's session:

He said that:
- problematic organs are easier to feel - healthy organs are soft and more difficult to feel
- the whole body is made of water. There is fluid in cells and between the cells, not just in the vascular and lymphatic systems.
- when an organ is not doing well, it is tense. This stops the fluid flowing freely through it. The fluid stagnates. Osteopaths manipulate the organs in order to allow the fluid to flow freely.
- the analogy he used was of a river. On the inside of the curve of a river, the water flows fast. On the outside, the water flows more slowly, and this is where there will be a build up of s**t. Osteopathy is like poking this slow moving water with a stick, or dredging the s**t.

Since the last session I have been more motivated but this is problematic, because I don't have the energy to do what I want to do. He worked on my adrenals so he puts this down to a little more adrenaline, enough to affect mood, but not enough to help the body.

Today he worked on:
- my adrenals: they are more hydrated apparently, still not great though
- my spleen: he said it was particularly easy to feel - not good

- musculoskeletal stuff: wrists, upper back/shoulders, neck. Did some weird things - saw if my wrists would pop, tapped my neck, aside from the already weird stuff I'm getting used to - I mean, osteopathy still feels totally weird to me. Holding my head or whatever in his hands, and slowly moving or not moving at all. Pressing on my shoulders and head did feel good today though, it kind of hurt in a good way, I wanted to fall asleep. He said my left wrist is fine but my right wrist is locked up, suggesting problems in the arm.
- finished with doing some movements on my feet. This almost felt like the end of a massage, some masseuses do this, I kind of like it.

After this session I will decide if I want to continue. I'm still undecided. I really want it to work, I want to see results. He surmised for me what I had been thinking - it's doing something, but it's not yet clear if there will certainly be benefits to my energy levels. I understand it takes time. I'm thinking about trying for a little longer, but it is so expensive. I think I will ask for a discount to help me to continue.

He said that since I do have musculoskeletal issues, this is an easy way in because he particularly knows a lot about this. I think he said endocrine here as well, I'm not sure. He said that he feels he could get his teeth into my case more than with some other ME/CFS cases he's treated. So he's sounding confident. He's mentioned a few things he could treat more for me.

Every session has been different, with different effects. It's all an experiment. So I guess this was about trying to hit on something that will work for me, from these experiments. I feel that the second session helped me the most in terms of energy, even though it was a subtle difference.

He was nice to me, said that I was switched on and had a drive to get better, and am psychologically healthy. I think he wants to continue to treat me. I would like to give it some more time but I'm also concerned about money, and the energy it's taking to go to the sessions. It's very close to my house, but at the moment leaving the house is difficult. He offered to answer any questions I had about osteopathy by email, which was good of him.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
2,211
Likes
4,053
@lior , how do you do with your osteopathy?

I had a cession 3 days ago and I crash badly.

He noticed my neck is deviated to the left and wished to move my vertebrae, which was certainly a bad idea.

I left with nausea that didn't stop after 3 days.
The only thing I want is staying in my bed, eating seems just a waste of time.

My breathing is short, and my spine is burning for 2 days, like it use to burn two years ago, when I was at my worst point.

It's like all the hard work I've made these past years to improve is on the floor.

I plan to have an appointement with a neurosurgeon to see what is really going wrong with my cervical. @Strawberry is wise to wait for her MRI before any cession, I think...