Organic Acids Test - false results?

[DogLover]

My OAT says that I'm high in dopamine (da) and norepinehprine (ne) and a perfect score in serotonin (se), but everything about me and my mental heath problems screams low low low!

I've got no mental energy, apathetic, sleep too late, can't get to sleep, worry, depression, anxiety etc., it goes on and on. My symptoms aren't super overwhelming, usually, but they are omnipresent and have had a cumulative affect. I get easily addicted to stimulants and alcohol, but have thankfully been blessed with enough lethargy to quit using whenever I want.

When I read symptoms of low transmitters, I get the feeling that I'm low in ALL of them. GABA and acetylcholine included.

What gives? Is there a clue as to why my test would say HI, when my life says LOW?

 

[Wishful]

The numbers could be correct, but there's something wrong with how well they're being taken into cells or used. Maybe you could inject dopamine directly into your brain, at 100x normal levels, but still feel low in energy because it isn't being used.

The symptoms could even be from some other reason: high dopamine might increase your energy by 12%, but cell malfunction x could reduce it by 28%, making you feel low in energy.

Life just isn't as simple as 'reading x = feeling y'.

 

[ljimbo423]

My OAT says that I'm high in dopamine (da) and norepinehprine (ne) and a perfect score in serotonin (se), but everything about me and my mental heath problems screams low low low!

There's a ME/CFS researcher, Jarrod Younger, that has done a study on the brains of ME/CFS patients compared to healthy people. He found the brains of the patients were hotter, I think it was about 1 degree but 1 degree for the brain is a lot because the temperature of the brain is very tightly regulated.

He also found other things that point to low grade brain inflammation in ME/CFS. He thinks it's this inflammation that is causing most of our symptoms. He thinks it's the low grade inflammation in the brain, which is triggering what's called the sickness response.

This sickness response causes a wide variety of symptoms. My hunch is, there are also other areas of the brain affected by this inflammation too, which can cause a much wider variety of other symptoms too.

If the brain is inflamed, the cells can't function right. So your test results might be right but the inflamed cells in your brain, can't properly use your dopamine, serotonin, gaba, etc.

There is a growing body of scientific research showing that many or most cases of depression are not caused by a lack of neurotransmitters but by inflammation in the brain.

 

[DogLover]

What a 20,000 piece monochrome puzzle.

I took 3000mg of Tyrosine today and it definitely gave me a bump. I had been doing a sloppy job at keeping track of my supplements lately and decided to re-calibrate. Hope it sticks.

 

[renski]

Did you have high HVA and or DOPAC? High HVA can be high dopamine but it can also mean your wasting/burning through it and are actually low. Some of these organic acid tests can be misleading/inaccurate, I've had great plains OAT, Nutreval and neuro biogenic amines (Doctors Data) done and the neurotransmitters were different.

 

[DogLover]

Did you have high HVA and or DOPAC? High HVA can be high dopamine but it can also mean your wasting/burning through it and are actually low. Some of these organic acid tests can be misleading/inaccurate, I've had great plains OAT, Nutreval and neuro biogenic amines (Doctors Data) done and the neurotransmitters were different.

Thank you!

33. HVA : 2.3 normal range (.39 - 2.2) HIGH
34. VMA : 1.6 normal range (.53 - 2.2)
36. DOPAC: 2.5 normal range (.27 - 1.9) HIGH
38. 5-DOPAC: 1.4 <= 2.9

I've been supplementing with 5HTP and Tyrosine, but my result were very spotty. After reading a bit more, I realized the ratio needs to be roughly 1/10, so I changed things and something is finally kicking in. I remember when I first started taking tyrosine it was like crack cocaine, but that effect quickly died out. For the last two days my energy and concentration has been way up! I hope it stays.

I think my problem ultimately lies in the gut, but until I get that straightened out, one would think that Tyrosine and 5HTP would help.

 

[ljimbo423]

I remember when I first started taking tyrosine it was like crack cocaine, but that effect quickly died out.

Have you tried N-acetyl-L-tyrosine? I was taking 6-7 grams a day of Tyrosine and not getting a lot of energy from it. I switched to NAT and found it was MUCH stronger. I only take 350-400 milligrams a day of NAT, that's all I need. If I take anymore, I become over-stimulated.

When I first started regular tyrosine, I also had great energy and just felt great but that feeling soon faded. That hasn't happened with the NAT. It's still just as effective now as when I first started taking it, several years ago.

I think my problem ultimately lies in the gut, but until I get that straightened out, one would think that Tyrosine and 5HTP would help.

I agree that it's my gut that's causing my problems as well. Not something that's easy to fix though.

 

[DogLover]

@ljimbo423
Thanks, Jim.

I'll look into NALT the next time I go to order.

I've been working on my gut for a good 4-6 months now. I don't eat any sugar, refined flours or bad oils. Mostly I eat meat, veggies, fruits, nuts and kefir as a probiotic. I end up cheating a couple of times a month, but very little. Also, I've been taking candida supps and probiotic pills.

Any other tips?

 

[ljimbo423]

I've been working on my gut for a good 4-6 months now. I don't eat any sugar, refined flours or bad oils. Mostly I eat meat, veggies, fruits, nuts and kefir as a probiotic. I end up cheating a couple of times a month, but very little. Also, I've been taking candida supps and probiotic pills.

Any other tips?

I wish I had some words of wisdom but I really don't. I've been treating my gut for 3 years. Both my gut and my overall health have improved quite a lot but I seemed to be stuck now for the last 9 months or so.

I did a stool test quite a while ago now and it came back showing "very severe dysbiosis". Treating it can take a long time but it's different for everybody. I'm doing basically the same things as you are.

Maybe that's the problem. Where both doing the same things wrong! lol

 

[Learner1]

@DogLover I just got my OAT and Genova Diagnostics NutrEval back.. Where the tests overlap, they correlated quite well with one another. They were done the same day, so I tend to believe what the is saying. That said, the neurotransmitter markers can be driven by stuffing your gut and amino acids, etc. Rather than just being pure neurotransmitter issues.

I had neurotransmitter results that were off as well, but I believe there are some explanations for mine. I think it's an extremely bad idea to be taking 5-HTP because of the metabolic trap that Robert Phair found that triggers ME/ CFS. Wouldn't touch it with a 10-ft pole. Oxygen is the only way out of that metabolic trap. Like inhaled oxygen or hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

I think you are very right to be looking at your gut. Do you have any malabsorption issues, and any nutrients that are low? Be vitamindeficiencies and imbalances and deficiencies and imbalances of their cofactors can be caused by gut issues. The other thing is that whatever the bacteria in your gut metabolize could be causing some of the symptoms you report over and above the metabolic trap.

Like Jimbo, I have been working on my gut for years, doing well, but then having to take antibiotics which screwed it up. And then I developed an oxalate issue after the antibiotics. On an ongoing project. I've done about every gut test there is, and I finally come to the conclusion that manipulating diet and supplements together it's probably more effective than taking the latest probiotic. figuring out what food sensitivities / allergies one has and avoiding those, and then doing a Viome test and following its advice is what I am currently trying. I got those results back, and found that what the test said supported what the OAT and NutrEval said, in addition to the diet changes I made about 6 months ago. It suggested some different supplements that I've been on, a few super foods to focus on, and some foods to avoid, and I'm going to head that direction.

to deal with short-term symptoms, it's more than just tyrosine, which I have found effective for low dopamine, and other amino acids. I would focus on methylation and getting mineral and amino acid cofactors, in addition to the B vitamins, particularly those that make glutathione.

But, this is a journey and there are no crystal clear answers here. But I have come a long way with dealing with the nutrition part even though my gut is still not perfect..

Best wishes.

 

[Hip]

My OAT says that I'm high in dopamine (da) and norepinehprine (ne)

The SelfHacked article says:

Doctors will order an organic acids test to check for RARE inborn genetic defects of metabolism, most often in newborns.

Unsanctioned Use

In recent years, some labs have started offering this test to the general public and many alternative practitioners started recommending it in their practice.

OAT testing has expanded to include “the diagnosis” of non-genetic conditions such as nutritional deficiencies or environmental exposure to toxins, which are then “treated” with supplements.

This type of testing also often includes another category of organic acids that are produced as a result of microbial activity (bacteria and yeast) in the gut that can supposedly uncover gut dysbiosis.

It’s important to know that there isn’t much scientific support for this kind of testing. That’s one of the reasons conventional medicine doesn’t recognize them as useful.

What Skeptics Say

Many skeptics say that OAT is a scam. It will set you back around $250 or more, and you will likely not be any better off for doing it.

They say that there’s no evidence these tests provide any useful information. They can’t be relied upon for the diagnosis of any non-genetic conditions. Furthermore, using them in an unsanctioned way can be misleading.

 

[renski]

Heh, I wouldn't rely on conventional medicine's opinion on whether they think it's useful.

 

[Hip]

Heh, I wouldn't rely on conventional medicine's opinion on whether they think it's useful.

Well I would not call SelfHacked's website conventional medicine. It's pretty alternative. So if SelfHacked is calling the OAT a scam, it's not looking good for that test.

 

[renski]

Well I would not call SelfHacked's website conventional medicine. It's pretty alternative. So if SelfHacked is calling the OAT a scam, it's not looking good for that test.

Yeah I was referring to their statement about conventional medicine, but wouldn't completely trust Selfhacked's opinion either, from my own experience with these tests they are mostly valid and useful, when Genova has different readings to Great plains, that's where they lose me.

 

[DogLover]

As for the general worth of the OAT, it's a bunch of data that may or may not mean something depending on individual situations.

Last night, I re-watched a Kalish video in which he talked about high NT levels and said something like, "look at these high levels. This guy is burning through them. That's why he's feeling so low." So, yeah, high levels do not necessarily mean high function.

Also, in my own personal experience, the OAT showed that I had candida, which I've been treating and have had some positive results. My digestion has settled down and I was dealing with constipation issues and they are now gone.

I had neurotransmitter results that were off as well, but I believe there are some explanations for mine. I think it's an extremely bad idea to be taking 5-HTP because of the metabolic trap that Robert Phair found that triggers ME/ CFS. Wouldn't touch it with a 10-ft pole. Oxygen is the only way out of that metabolic trap. Like inhaled oxygen or hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

I've never heard of this. I don't suffer from ME/CFS per se, more anxiety/depression. I like phoenix, because the people here are great and many of the symptoms and treatments overlap.

I've been experimenting with 5HTP and Tyrosine "off and on" for over a year now. Every time I quit taking 5HTP I go into a depressive/anxiety nightmare. I've done it 3 times and it happens each time. I'm currently taking 300mg 5HTP / 3g Tyrosine and am tinkering with doses.

I've tried taking tryptophan, 5htp, tyrosine, phenylalenine, etc before, but I never hiked up my dosing past commonly recommended starting doses. I concluded that it didn't work for me. Now, I'm taking another whack at it.

 

[renski]

I've tried taking tryptophan, 5htp, tyrosine, phenylalenine, etc before, but I never hiked up my dosing past commonly recommended starting doses. I concluded that it didn't work for me. Now, I'm taking another whack at it.

Tried COMT inhibitor, like EGCG or Quercetin? B6 is needed to make dopamine. Or maybe some adrenal support/adaptogens.

 

[DogLover]

Tried COMT inhibitor, like EGCG or Quercetin? B6 is needed to make dopamine. Or maybe some adrenal support/adaptogens.

I'm reading about his now. At first glance, it would make some sense, because it looks like COMT/MOA break down most if not all neurotransmitters. Which I feel like I'm low in all of them.

I'm also low in methylation, knowing this from Walsh tests where I measure VERY HIGH in whole blood histamines. As I treat methylation, I'm also turning on COMT and burning through more NTs???

The 5HTP and tyrosine (&B6,etc) do help. The 5HTP does lift my horrible scary mood and tyrosine does give me energy. The only thing missing is that the energy I get is a hyper non-focusing energy, all physical and NO mental. I take l-theanine, which helps calm me down.

 

[renski]

I'm reading about his now. At first glance, it would make some sense, because it looks like COMT/MOA break down most if not all neurotransmitters. Which I feel like I'm low in all of them.

I'm also low in methylation, knowing this from Walsh tests where I measure VERY HIGH in whole blood histamines. As I treat methylation, I'm also turning on COMT and burning through more NTs???

The 5HTP and tyrosine (&B6,etc) do help. The 5HTP does lift my horrible scary mood and tyrosine does give me energy. The only thing missing is that the energy I get is a hyper non-focusing energy, all physical and NO mental. I take l-theanine, which helps calm me down.

I think if your stressed or adrenals are under stress the HVA marker can be high, for methylation it'd be better to assess it from organic acids test, and methylation profile etc. I wouldn't worry about methylation/COMT, it'll all work out as long as it's done in the right order, you may have to address other issues first.

 

[DogLover]

I think if your stressed or adrenals are under stress the HVA marker can be high, for methylation it'd be better to assess it from organic acids test, and methylation profile etc. I wouldn't worry about methylation/COMT, it'll all work out as long as it's done in the right order, you may have to address other issues first.

According to Dr Walsh, the whole blood histamine test is the "gold standard" for methylation. Does the OAT measure methylation? I only see one mention on my test, line 59. Methylation, Toxic esposure.

 

[renski]

There's more to it then just measuring histamine, B12/folate/B6 would be good markers to check, homocysteine, etc. https://fxmed.co.nz/organic-acid-testing-an-essential-tool-for-methylation-issues/