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OMF-funded RBC Deformability Paper Published!

virtual

Traveller
Messages
26
Location
Germany
According to this paper, the drug G-Strophanthine should be working. It has several effects on the endothelial wall as well as in increases the deformability and flexibility of erythrocytes. I believe it is worth a try:

This was discovered by Dr. R. E. Dohrmann in 1984 (Germany):
"Der Arzt R. E. Dohrmann informiert im selben Jahr 1984 über die positive Wirkung kombinierter Behandlung mit
Strophantin und Pentoxyfillin (Firmenname Trental), das die Erythrozytenflexibilität verbessert (ermöglicht den
Durchtritt roter Blutkörperchen durch extrem dünne Poren und beeinflusst die Fließeigenschaft des Blutes). 122
Patienten waren nach einer Woche, 22 weitere nach zwei Wochen "vollständig beschwerdefrei".


 

Peyt

Senior Member
Messages
678
Location
Southern California
According to this paper, the drug G-Strophanthine should be working. It has several effects on the endothelial wall as well as in increases the deformability and flexibility of erythrocytes. I believe it is worth a try:

This was discovered by Dr. R. E. Dohrmann in 1984 (Germany):
"Der Arzt R. E. Dohrmann informiert im selben Jahr 1984 über die positive Wirkung kombinierter Behandlung mit
Strophantin und Pentoxyfillin (Firmenname Trental), das die Erythrozytenflexibilität verbessert (ermöglicht den
Durchtritt roter Blutkörperchen durch extrem dünne Poren und beeinflusst die Fließeigenschaft des Blutes). 122
Patienten waren nach einer Woche, 22 weitere nach zwei Wochen "vollständig beschwerdefrei".
@virtual Does G-Strophanthine lower blood pressure?
 

Tally

Senior Member
Messages
367
It is becoming increasingly clear that several traditionally mentally classified disorders have a large "physical component"

I will never understand how it has not always been clear that all psychological disorders are purely physical. Do scientists really believe that mind is some magical entity beyond the realm of the physical world?

The mind is a combination of brain as a physical organ with chemical influence on it by cytokines, hormones etc. and psychological illnesses are called that only because the system is still too complex for us to properly measure and understand.

Anyway, as much as I would like a cure today, a proof that there is something physically wrong and that M.E. patients are neither lying nor imagining things would be invaluable to so many of us who don't have access to basic medical care and compassion.

Cell deformability seems like a wonderful candidate for that.
 
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virtual

Traveller
Messages
26
Location
Germany
@virtual Does G-Strophanthine lower blood pressure?

As far I know, it will lower the blood pressure.

Also interesting for us is the fact that it strengthens the parasympathetic system.

Ghadhanfar E et al. Wistar rats resistant to the hypertensive effects of ouabain exhibit enhanced cardiac vagal activity and elevated plasma levels of calcitonin gene-related peptide. PLOS ONE 2014; 9: e108909.



Hamlyn JM, Blaustein MP, Bova S, DuCharme DW, Harris DW, Mandel F, Mathews WR, Ludens JH. Identification and characterization of an ouabain-like compound from human plasma. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1991;88:6259–6263.

Baecher S, Kroiss M, Fassnacht M, Vogeser M. No endogenous ouabain is detectable in human plasma by ultra-sensitive UPLC-MS/MS. Clin Chim Acta. 2014;431:87–92.

Lewis LK, Yandle TG, Hilton PJ, Jensen BP, Begg EJ, and Nicholls MG. Endogenous Ouabain Is Not Ouabain. Hypertension. 2014 Oct;64(4):680-3

Staessen JA, Thijs L, Stolarz-Skrzypek K, et al. Main results of the ouabain and adducin for Specific Intervention on Sodium in Hypertension Trial (OASIS-HT): a randomized placebo-controlled phase-2 dose-finding study of rostafuroxin. Trials. 2011;12:13.




Also it seems to be neuroprotective:

Brain Na(+), K(+)-ATPase Activity In Aging and Disease. de Lores Arnaiz GR, Ordieres MG, Int J Biomed Sci. 2014 Jun;10(2):85-102.

Dvela-Levitt M, Cohen-Ben Ami H, Rosen H, Shohami E, Lichtstein D. Ouabain improves functional recovery following traumatic brain injury. J Neurotrauma. 2014 Jul 9. [Epub ahead of print]

and I found hints that it lowers norepinephrine. [Searching for studies - if you know some insert it here, please]
 
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virtual

Traveller
Messages
26
Location
Germany
Hmm, I am digging deeper at the moment: and additional to Strophanthin, also Ginkgo Bilboa and Quercetin may support the erythrocytes flexibility. I have no studies for this at the moment...
 
Messages
9
If it were the cause then all of the other diseases that I noted (and a lot more diseases and conditions as well) which appear to suffer equally from oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation - and therefore potentially reduced RBC deformability - should seemingly exhibit our same ME/CFS symptomatology, unless the impairment of RBC deformability is greater in ME/CFS or is somehow otherwise different.


There's an additional problem that I wasn't going to mention, and that is that oxidative stress is found in psychological conditions as well (which have physical underpinnings of course). In fact, a meta-analysis found lipid peroxidation in major depression (ref), so chances are that (severely) depressed patients may show abnormal RBC deformability as well. An additional study would have to be done to see if that can be excluded and I'm not sure it's worth the money, at least not at this time.

It just seems that this RBC deformability issue is likely to be too common to be of much help for us other than showing oxidative stress is present. And we already knew that, although Dr Davis's methodology looks to be a lot more convenient than measuring malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidation marker), for instance.

Oxidative stress is also a hallmark of persistent infection: (see below )

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5309413/
 

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
I will never understand how it has not always been clear that all psychological disorders are purely physical. Do scientists really believe that mind is some magical entity beyond the realm of the physical world?
Most scientists probably don't, but most mainstream doctors likely do. The latter seem disinclined to believe in the physical nature of any ailments that aren't visible or testable unless they've personally experienced the problem themselves.

Anyway, as much as I would like a cure today, a proof that there is something physically wrong and that M.E. patients are neither lying nor imagining things would be invaluable to so many of us who don't have access to basic medical care and compassion.

Cell deformability seems like a wonderful candidate for that.
I wish that were the case. As I mentioned in some posts above, reduced RBC deformability is quite common in a wide spectrum of disease states, including psychiatric ones like schizophrenia (where the degree of reduction in RBC deformability appears to be directly proportional to the degree of psychosis) and probably major depression as well (given the finding of lipid peroxidation in that state).

Also, numerous common antioxidants, including vitamin E, NAC, lipoic acid, melatonin, etc, have each been shown, individually, to correct/prevent impaired RBC deformability when the problem is due to oxidative stress, at least in ex vivo experiments. And all of us moderate-to-severe patients know that while antioxidants can be helpful they're not an effective treatment for ME/CFS by any stretch of the imagination. (As I also mentioned previously, there are other reasons besides oxidative stress for reduced RBC deformability but where lipid peroxidation is present and is proportional to the reduction in deformability then oxidative stress is a likely culprit.)

There also already exists a test in common use that probably provides essentially the same information (at least for ME/CFS purposes) as a RBC deformability test, and that is testing for malondialdehyde, which is a marker for lipid peroxidation and oxidative stress. Mainstream doctors don't give any weight to that test either because it's simply too nonspecific. I do like Ron Davis’s test better though because it's presumably going to be more convenient than a lipid peroxidation test (or any other existing RBC deformability tests for that matter).
 

Tally

Senior Member
Messages
367
As I mentioned in some posts above, reduced RBC deformability is quite common in a wide spectrum of disease states, including psychiatric ones like schizophrenia (where the degree of reduction in RBC deformability appears to be directly proportional to the degree of psychosis)

I don't know enough to know if what this paper found is the same cell deformability as found in schizophrenia.

M.E. is definitely a purely physical illness, but I happen to know a person with schizophrenia. No one is telling them their illness is not real, no one is telling them to get over it, no one is telling them to exercise their way out of it, no one is trying to brainwash them. They have a GP and a specialist fully committed to treating them, they are getting medication that works, and they have support from their family and friends.
 

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
There's a potential discrepancy with a 2010 Australian ME/CFS study here:

Immune and hemorheological changes in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

That study did find the seemingly common (in ME/CFS) reduced natural killer (NK) cell activity in their patients but yet found normal RBC deformability (n = 6).

That seems unlikely to me unless the patients were supplementing antioxidants. One would think the patients would have been instructed to stop these but the text of the paper doesn't appear to mention that. (They also apparently didn't think to measure lipid peroxidation, which might have been helpful.)

If they weren't supplementing antioxidants then it's a potentially interesting discrepancy.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Trental improves the flexibility of red blood cells
Looks like many of the drugs in the PDE (phosphodiesterase inhibitor) class improve RBS deformability.
https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-cellular-biotechnology/jcb15005
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25780331

Interesting to note from looking at various papers into other conditions that nitric oxide regulates RBC deformability and the precursor to NO, arginine, can be reduced by elevated levels of lactate. That can point to ischemia/reperfusion injury being part of this whole mix too.
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpheart.00665.2002
https://www.pathophysiologyjournal.com/article/S0928-4680(16)30010-4/pdf
https://utmb.influuent.utsystem.edu...rulline-and-arginine-synthesis-from-proline-i
 

Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
Nitric oxide, hasn't that come up in discussion over the years?

Sure has. Here's a PR blog post on it from a few years back.
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 1 of 2)

Also

Fluge and Mella patented a thing for improving NO.

Plus Greg's long and popular thread in which he reckons he cured himself with an NO supplement

I experimented with arginine, which is supposed to increase NO production. I'm fairly sure NO is implicated in our disease, but maybe in a bad way. The arginine made me dizzy.

For me everything that normally induces vasodilation (heat exercise alcohol) is bad news. I struggle to be sure if I'm getting too much vasodilation, vasodialtion that lasts too long, or not enough.

--
 

Peyt

Senior Member
Messages
678
Location
Southern California
Sure has. Here's a PR blog post on it from a few years back.
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 1 of 2)

Also

Fluge and Mella patented a thing for improving NO.

Plus Greg's long and popular thread in which he reckons he cured himself with an NO supplement

I experimented with arginine, which is supposed to increase NO production. I'm fairly sure NO is implicated in our disease, but maybe in a bad way. The arginine made me dizzy.

For me everything that normally induces vasodilation (heat exercise alcohol) is bad news. I struggle to be sure if I'm getting too much vasodilation, vasodialtion that lasts too long, or not enough.

--
That's my problem as well,
Do you get headaches often? Especially when taking vasodilating supplements? Do you have blood pooling and feeling of heavyness in the legs and light headedness in the head?

When I tried arginine it improved my sleep greatly but gave me the side effects mentioned above.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Do you get headaches often?
Headaches are a very common side effect from vasodilation via boosting NO production. Just occasional use can set off a headache at every start up. Some people get headaches way worse than others and/or only get them or have worse ones with different classes of vasodilator med.

Headaches will normally settle after a few days, or up to a couple of weeks, and can be lessened by building up the dose from a low base over the course of a couple of weeks.

More isn't always better of course and the paper I referenced above about Viagra was talking about using just a low dose. Same was said for use of l-arginine in one of the papers above.
 

Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
That's my problem as well,
Do you get headaches often? Especially when taking vasodilating supplements? Do you have blood pooling and feeling of heavyness in the legs and light headedness in the head?
no headaches for me. I get cog fog but not light-headedness per se.
 

virtual

Traveller
Messages
26
Location
Germany
Looked up the report of my blood analysis when I was really in a bad flare:
They found an anisocytosis and hypochromic. Ferritin was normal with 211 ug/l. Hämoglobin was low with 12,5 g/dl.
 

S-VV

Senior Member
Messages
310
Not all oxidative stress diminishes RBC flexibility:

The effects of colorectally insufflated oxygen-ozone on red blood cell rheology in rabbits

Currently, with reappraisal of ozone therapy, it has been utilized worldwide in research and clinical field. Most of the studies investigating effects of ozone on blood parameters are conducted by directly ozonating the blood. Rectal insufflation is a simple, easy and inexpensive method of delivering ozone. Little is known how these gases affect some fundamental hemorheologic parameters when given by insufflation. We aimed to investigate the effects of colorectally insufflated oxygen-ozone on red blood cell rheology in rabbits. Rabbits were divided into Group 1 (control); Groups 2, 3 and 4 (oxygen rectally insufflated respectively for 15, 21 and 36 days); Groups 5, 6 and 7 (ozone rectally insufflated respectively for 15, 21 and 36 days). Erythrocyte deformability, aggregation and osmotic fragility were determined from blood samples at the end of each treatment period. Our study showed an improvement in deformability, a decrease in aggregation and an increase in fragility following a 15 day ozone treatment. With longer ozone application the changes in aggregation and fragility returned back to control levels, however its effect on deformability sustained. Therefore, more than two weeks ozone insufflation may induce adaptation to changes induced by ozone suggesting its systemic effects
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Interesting to note that insufflated oxygen-ozone and orally drinking ozonated water is proposed as a means to normalise dysbiosis too, might be able to kill two birds with one stone;

https://www.researchgate.net/public...flation_in_patients_with_intestinal_dysbiosis

The use of ozonated water and rectal insufflation in patients with intestinal dysbiosis;
[In conclusion, the study confirmed the validity of the treatment with ozonized water combined with rectal insufflation of oxygen and ozone mixture, to control the symptoms linked to dysbiosis and to favor the restoration of proper environmental homeostasis at an intestinal microclimate level in adults.]