Niacin vs. niacinamide - SAMe/SAH ratio

Kimsie

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Hi Kimsie!

I saw your thread wich is about the overmethylation myth. As I have a long term experience with t3 and methylation I'd like to share my insight. Maybe it'll be helpful for you and for others aswell :)

So first of all I apologize if I'm going to be discursive but there's so much going around in my mind I find it a little bit hard to orginaze it. I'll try to put thedetails into a list.

Basics:
I'm a hypothyroid patient due to thyroidectomy (2008). At that time I was only taking basic vitamins and an avarage B complex what definitely contained folic acid.
I have no MTHFR c677 snp but a single copy of a1298 mutation.
I have several hetero DHFR mutations (high ammonia) and I'm also suspecting MAT snps (high methionine, very high IGF with no meat consumption).
I'm experiencing with methylation for 3 years now.

T4 experience:
I was a massive undermethylator on T4. Very low sex hormones, I easily got ill and I was quite underweight (despite eating a lot of carbs). Severe hypoglycemia and very bad carb cravings. My mental state was hideous. Constant brain fog, depressed most of the time, impulsive/aggresive behaviour, cried almost everyday.

T3 experience:
I'm taking T3 only since 2011.
The first sign of a change was that I started to gain weight without changing anything with my diet. I became more calm and my brainfog's cleared slightly.
In the long run I've gained some wieght (+10lbs) and I'm struggling pretty hard with weight loss atm compared to when I was taking T4. Massive brainfog never really went away.
Other mayor differences (at least in my view): on T4 my creatinine was normal/high, on T3 my creatinine is almost as low as the bottom reference. While I was always peeing a lot on T4, on T3 it's the opposite: I hardly can get out any juice :)D :()

Now on the fun part :)

Methyl B12 + methylfolate experience:
3 years ago when I started to familiarize with this topic I just jumped into methyl b12 = outrageous fatigue, felt like I was hit by a truck. Tried lithium orotate as I believed that methy b12 gave me this negative reaction because it couldn't enter the cell.
I felt awesome, hyperactively great for a few days but then. Oh, the horror!!! It was even worse than MB12! Now I know that lithium is an NMDA antagonist and definitely this gave me the negative effect.
So I skipped playing around and for a long time I was taking Thorne's B complex. Still very bad brainfog and my other big concern is very bad fluid retention wich can't be fixed with potassium.
Then I was like why do I take this crap if it doesn't do anything good for me? I ditched the B complex and was taking B6 only with basic vits. Wonderfully all the water weight and all other weight came down. I felt wonderful except brain fog was still there. Of course the weight came back ever since :/

Recent experiences:
2 months ago I was taking 800mcg folinic acid and 100mg thiamine, no B12. No brain fog, overally I felt pretty good.
But still no weight loss and overally I felt my immune system was struggling. Eczema quite bad. No allergies though, I'm not histamine intolerant.
So I got back to the starting point and started taking methyls.

I was taking 2000mcg methyfolate + 8600mcg adenosyl b12. I felt energetic, the steady procrastination went away, no brain fog. Unfortunatley after my afternoon T3 dose I always felt dragged down and felt the urge to take a second dose of methylfolate and B12 and yepp it did the trick.
Still no weight loss and after a week energy was fading gradually. Lot's of people here would be like okay, why don't you keep raising folate and B12? I felt like there's something more and since I have no mthfr why do I need so much folate anyway?
So eventually I added 2000mg of TMG.
(Necessary detail to this part: Once I was on a paleo diet. What it gave to me was very high IGF, very nasty, oily acne prone skin and tremendous hair fall. I became a vegan and all things have fixed. Methionine is the most effective substance that raises IGF.)
So when I've added TMG all these symptoms have returned...they were there with Mfolate and B12 but with TMG they've kicked in very hard. Metionine's peaked once again from TMG. It wouldn't be a problem if it was converted to SAMe at the same time but apparently this is not the case for me.

Okay, let's support MAT with some good magnesium. I got the very same effect from magnesium as I've experienced with lithium! And I have the very same effect with vit D too.

My theory:
  • T3 inhibits the GNMT enzyme -> higher SAMe
  • higher SAMe inhibits MTHFR -> glycine conversation from serine is hindered so eventually there's a smaller amount of glycine to degrade SAMe
  • Magnesium elevates SAMe wich sucks down glycine stores even further. Since glycine and it's derivate sarcosine is an NMDA agonist, I'm left with no NMDA agonist and experience the same as when I took lithium.
  • So I've came to the conslusion that I'm low in NMDA agonist glycine and it's derivate sarcosine and I'm high in methionie. What can be done? Should I go back to folinic acid even it is only a so-so solution? No if I've already came so far! :p

Currently:
In the morning
1000mcg methyfolate + 1000mcg methyl b12 for methionine production
magnesium orotate for converting methionine to SAMe
glycine to degrade unused SAMe and have enough for NMDA activation
vit A to accelarate SAMe + glycine = GNMT production

In the afternoon
The same as in the morning except I don't take folate and b12 rather getting some methionine for food.

So far so good! I feel like my whole brainfog and water retention originated from the lack of glycine and sarcosine.
I'm also curious if the extra glycine will raise my creatinine.
In the future I'm also planning to add niacin or maybe niacinamide. I've had good result with niacin in the past but after 2 weeks it's stopped working and I had a similar condition as I had with lithium.

I hope it was helpful :)
 
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dannybex

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All I was saying is that I already struggle with histamine related problems and taking niacin makes it worse, so I usually stay away from it. Niacinamide works fine for me without causing histamine release.
That's really interesting. I was taking niacin to help increase NAD levels and prevent tryptophan breakdown due to insufficient B3, but had to stop due to extremely watery eyes and sinus issues. But then my overall 'energy' has taken a nose-dive and I can literally feel my muscle loss starting up again.

But just a few minutes ago I read this study that showed that only 100 mgs of niacinamide, which they called an 'excessive' dose, increased histamine levels.

So my question (which I've probably asked before!) is -- how much B12 and methylfolate (methyl-donors) are you taking @PeterPositive to balance the niacinamide (methyl-acceptor)?

Also, did you try to experiment for a bit to find a dose or doses that effectively reversed the effects from niacin, but eventually found that niacinamide gave you better results?

Thanks in advance.
 
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PeterPositive

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So my question (which I've probably asked before!) is -- how much B12 and methylfolate (methyl-donors) are you taking @PeterPositive to balance the niacinamide (methyl-acceptor)?
I take 4x Metafolin 800mcg and ~10-12mg methyl-B12.
Niacinamide is 80-100mg.

Also, did you try to experiment for a bit to find a dose or doses that effectively reversed the effects from niacin, but eventually found that niacinamide gave you better results?
I've done very few experiments with niacin because of the increased discomfort I got from it. Even at low doses. I mostly experimented with niacinamide.
 

dannybex

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Thanks @PeterPositive . I know we're all different, but it's good to have an example.

I was going through a diary from 2011 and found a few mentions of niacinamide and every time I had a really bad reaction. But I wasn't taking anywhere near that amount of B12 or folate.
 

renski

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If you're SAMe is low (due to inhibition of methionine synthase), seems taking niacinamide would be a bad idea, but my tests indicate low B2, B3, B6 ahead of any other B's and B3 is recommended for converting oxidized glutathione back to reduced, it's as though you are improving glutathione status but making your SAMe go lower. Doesn't make sense and there must be some other route/explanation.