New study looking at oxidative stress

[seamyb]

Thanks for the solid reply Jimbo.

Glutathione absolutely destroys me

Yea, it has been a cause of my air hunger, but I've been tolerating it recently and I'm not sure why. One possibility is that I've been taking activated charcoal which may be reducing the toxic load being reintroduced through the intestines. Another possibility is I've been reducing the microbes causing the infection (but I've definitely been making them angrier, as I'm becoming quite sick).

Either way, the glutathione has the effect of alleviating the nasty sick feeling I get but isn't without it's side effects.

Just bought some ALA and got a bit carried away - also got glutamine, taurine, arginine, ornithine and glycine (the aminos used to conjugate in phase 2 detox) and Milk thistle (apparently also helpful for the liver), so if anybody has any wisdom on these, much appreciated.

I'm currently going down the mold/biotoxin route, hence my obsession with the liver.

 

[ljimbo423]

Just bought some ALA and got a bit carried away - also got glutamine, taurine, arginine, ornithine and glycine (the aminos used to conjugate in phase 2 detox) and Milk thistle (apparently also helpful for the liver)

Ah, the shotgun approach! lol

I'm currently going down the mold/biotoxin route, hence my obsession with the liver.

I don't think you can go wrong improving your liver function. Most people without ME/CFS could improve their health by improving their liver function.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I've been taking activated charcoal

when/how do you deploy the charcoal?

 

[seamyb]

when/how do you deploy the charcoal?

Just a couple of capsules... orally At night though, don't want it mopping up nutrients.

 

[SpiralOut]

@seamyb this is the supercharged form of milkthistle:
https://www.google.com/search?q=swa...hUKEwjk2srR3e_yAhWEQEEAHSsbA38Q4dUDCAw&uact=5

Solid studies have been done on it:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=siliphos

 

[seamyb]

one way immune system activation causes oxidative stress is because immune cells release toxins to kill pathogens

I've been thinking about this and the quote underneath it about how macrophages and neutrophils release ROS to kill pathogens and mediate the immune response.

Is it possible that, although antioxidants make us feel better short term, they're actually damaging long term, assuming we have chronic infections? If our immune system is sort of half keeping an infection down, are we allowing the infection to run free by suppressing the oxidative immune response?

For me, this would give me the best theory I have so far as to why those things which make me feel better (antioxidants) also cause air hunger. If I have biofilm colonies in the sinuses and lungs I would have a lot of the oxidative stress around these cells. Then when it's suppressed, I feel much better because of less ROS, but the microbes in my lungs are free to do whatever and I feel like I can't breathe. Only flaw in the theory, possibly, is that the timescales don't make sense. I immediately get air hunger upon ingestion of antioxidants. Doesn't seem like enough time for microbes to realise they're free.

 

[ljimbo423]

Is it possible that, although antioxidants make us feel better short term, they're actually damaging long term, assuming we have chronic infections? If our immune system is sort of half keeping an infection down, are we allowing the infection to run free by suppressing the oxidative immune response?

What you say makes sense but my experience tells me they help.

I've improved my health from severe and mostly bedridden to fairly mild most of the time. As I was improving, I continued to increase the number and dosage of very strong antioxidants I took and still take.

For me, this would give me the best theory I have so far as to why those things which make me feel better (antioxidants) also cause air hunger.

I often have air hunger but it seems to happen mostly at random. Although I do seem to have more air hunger when I don't go out for a walk for several days. Maybe it's just from a build-up of carbon dioxide, from not getting the oxygen I need into my lungs.

Only flaw in the theory, possibly, is that the timescales don't make sense. I immediately get air hunger upon ingestion of antioxidants. Doesn't seem like enough time for microbes to realise they're free.

I wonder if the antioxidants are somehow increasing your bodies need for oxygen. Therefore causing the air hunger. I have no idea if this even happens. I'm just trying to connect your experience with mine. My air hunger seems to be caused by lack of oxygen.

 

[Pyrrhus]

A blog post from Dr. Anthony Komaroff, discussing the article:

Redox Imbalance: A Core Feature of ME/CFS and Acute COVID-19
https://cfsformecfs.org/2021/09/15/redox-imbalance-a-core-feature-of-me-cfs-and-acute-covid-19/

Excerpt:

Anthony L. Komaroff, MD

ME/CFS is defined exclusively by symptoms—subjective experiences that are hard to verify by objective testing. For that reason, since interest in ME/CFS began to grow in the 1980s, scientists have been looking for evidence of underlying objective abnormalities that might explain the symptoms.

A recent review, published August 24, 2021, in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, summarizes in detail the evidence demonstrating one of the several objective abnormalities in people with ME/CFS and acute COVID-19: redox imbalance.1 It speculates that redox imbalance may also be present in post-acute COVID-19 syndrome, or “long COVID-19”, although this remains to be studied.

Redox imbalance occurs when the molecules that are oxidants (particularly “free radicals” or reactive oxygen species) exceed the number of molecules that are antioxidants. Essentially, redox imbalance is the same as the more familiar term of “oxidative stress”.

 

[Bobby Peru]

in this context, just a "mechanism" from environmental technology...
...to just think about, if similar processes in humans are possible...


(Amines are formally derivatives of ammonia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amine)

e.g. for the unexplainable exercise troubles:

a) perhaps a lot of H2S in the body
b) too much ammonia ... for whatever reason
c) too much ammonia binds a lot of h2s
d) one day there is exercise
e) harmful ammonia releases h2s in huge amounts
== person has some h2s poisoning...

Very interesting.
In terms of SIBO (Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth), excessive Hydrogen and Methane are detectable. Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S, Hyd with Sulfur) is harder to determine.
I am no expert, but perhaps SIBO could be the source of excessive H2S.
To the extent it is relevant, H2S exposure is what OSHA warns against for workers in certain industries.
Hydrogen sulfide also occurs naturally in sewers, manure pits. Hydrogen sulfide (also known as H2S, sewer gas, swamp gas, stink damp, and sour damp) is a colorless gas known for its pungent "rotten egg" odor at low concentrations. It is extremely flammable and highly toxic.

 

[Reading_Steiner]

pretty sure exercise creates toxins of some kind, i've been generally doing ok but I was forced to work a very physical job, only managed 3 or 4 hours before the neurological symptoms and muscle pain was overwhelming, went back home slept for 6 hours, woke up with a big headache that felt like a bad hangover, various issues over the next few days as you might imagine.

 

[BrightCandle]

pretty sure exercise creates toxins of some kind, i've been generally doing ok but I was forced to work a very physical job, only managed 3 or 4 hours before the neurological symptoms and muscle pain was overwhelming, went back home slept for 6 hours, woke up with a big headache that felt like a bad hangover, various issues over the next few days as you might imagine.

Given the impact of Sodium Benzoate I am fairly certain the headaches, for me at least, are excess ammonia.

 

[frozenborderline]

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/34/e2024358118

 

[Violeta]

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/34/e2024358118

Yes, this makes sense.
Martin Pall's work addresses this.

 

[Judee]

Given the impact of Sodium Benzoate I am fairly certain the headaches, for me at least, are excess ammonia.

Does the Sodium Benzoate reduce ammonia? (I'm sorry I cannot find the main protocol thread for some reason in order to look that up.)

I just ask because I don't get headaches as much as I used to but I do think I get a build up of ammonia.
Also did you find a brand that works best?

 

[BrightCandle]

Does the Sodium Benzoate reduce ammonia? (I'm sorry I cannot find the main protocol thread for some reason in order to look that up.)

I just ask because I don't get headaches as much as I used to but I do think I get a build up of ammonia.
Also did you find a brand that works best?

That is what Joshua Liesk suggested it and there is definitely papers out there supporting that it does indeed help with disposal of ammonia. It also causes its own type of head pressure/headache but its just different feeling.

In terms of brands I just have something food safe I bought off Amazon. You only use maybe 5g a day so you don't need KGs of the stuff for the protocol.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Just some advise about the ROS reducers. Titration is advised and trying each one out first is also advised. If it whacks you like glutathione did to me then take it before bed. I slept like a baby for 2 weeks until it started to keep me awake. I then switched it to the am and have been taking it like that for about 8 months. If I stop taking it I do deteriorate mentally quite a lot.

It took me awhile for example to tolerate ALA and NAC and Glycine. I think it's very individual just have to try low doses and see how you react. My stating dose of nac was just 20mg before bed it hit me that hard.
My detox pathways work very well now and I don't suffer from inflamation very often. Which means neck pain, neck stiffness, swelling at the back of head and base of skull have been gone and haven't come back for 12 months at this point. I can't say for sure it's just ROS though it's probably got over lapping pathology with something else.

Even so I'm still struggling with ME symptoms and have yet to get over my winter relapse. And since I had a virus last week I'm now struggling very badly but I think that could also be a hormone issue tbh. Anyway point is inflamation has remained under control the entire time and I do believe that's had a positive impact on my fatigue which isn't anything like it was 12 months ago.