new organ detected in human body/acupuncture theory discussion

Rufous McKinney

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https://www.newscientist.com/articl...an-organ-may-help-explain-how-cancer-spreads/

This article describes the recent discovery of previously undetected fluid channels in the body....

A newly discovered network of fluid-filled channels in the human body may be a previously-unknown organ, and it seems to help transport cancer cells around the body.

This discovery was made by chance, from routine endoscopies – a procedure that involves inserting a thin camera into a person’s gastrointestinal tract. Newer approaches enable doctors to use this procedure to get a microscopic look at the tissue inside a person’s gut at the same time, with some surprising results.

One team had expected to find that the bile duct is surrounded by a hard, dense wall of tissue. But instead, they saw weird, unexplained patterns. They took their findings to Neil Theise, a pathologist at New York University School of Medicine.

Shock absorbers
When Theise used the same endomicroscopy device to look under the skin of his own nose, he saw a similar result. Further investigation of other organs suggested that these patterns are made by a type of fluid moving through channels that are everywhere in the body.

Theise reckons that every tissue in the body may be surrounded by a network of these channels, which essentially form an organ. The team estimate that the organ contains around a fifth of the total fluid volume of the human body. “We think they act as shock absorbers,” says Theise.
This organ was likely never seen before because standard approaches for processing and visualising human tissue causes the channels to drain, and the collagen fibres that give the network its structure to collapse in on themselves. This would have made the channels appear like a hard wall of dense protective tissue, instead of a fluid-filled cushion.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...elp-explain-how-cancer-spreads/#ixzz6Dgpf2fZv
 

Rufous McKinney

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Shock absorbers

Maybe this system does serve as shock absorbers.

But its also quite likely to be the route where in the body is communicating...via electromagnetic signalling.

So all this is preliminary. I wonder if this corresponds with the channels the Korean's have identified...

And wonder how these channels function when COLLAGEN is- being affected by MECFS. Which I'm sure it is.
 

Rufous McKinney

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This organ was likely never seen before because standard approaches for processing and visualising human tissue causes the channels to drain, and the collagen fibres that give the network its structure to collapse in on themselves. This would have made the channels appear like a hard wall of dense protective tissue, instead of a fluid-filled cushion.

Trying to relocate where I previously posted about these channels the Koreans found using lugols solution to stain them...fluid fill channels that are connected to the body systems and organs and they are not blood or lymph. Possibly the same things.
 

Rufous McKinney

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Trying to relocate where I previously posted about these channels

Re-Googling is easier than searching old threads....

this Article is about the Koreans potentially locating a system which may be the meridian system thats affected by acupuncture....so there is potential these are somehow similar or related.

https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/korean-researchers-claim-scientific-evidence-of-meridians

So now we have a whole new arena- where SOMETHING could be sending out the wrong messages, impaired messages...and imagine how NOT FLOWING these channels could be if their collagen walls are weakening.

No wonder.
 

Rufous McKinney

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Here is some background on the original theory of- this meridian system..from Korea.

Abstract
The Bonghan system is a newly-discovered circulatory system, which corresponds to classical acupuncture meridians and was discovered in the early 1960s by Bonghan Kim. Despite its potential importance in biology and medicine, it has been ignored or forgotten for a long time. Only recently have most of its significant parts, such as the Bonghan system (BHS) inside blood or lymph vessels, on the surfaces of internal organs, and in brain ventricles, been confirmed. For this, novel methods using modern technology were necessary because Bonghan Kim did not describe his methods. For example, Among other methods, the discovery of a BHS-specific dye, trypan blue, was one of the most important original contributions that made BHS observation possible. With this technique, the BHS in adipose tissue became traceable, and the BHS was discovered on the fascia surrounding tumor tissues, a finding which may have great significance in relation to serious health problems in modern society, namely, obesity and cancer.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2005290109600418

(they used trypan blue, not lugols)

I think these two groups of researchers need to talk.
 

Rufous McKinney

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Here's another related article:

Cool- yes !!

So these fluid filled channels that were possibly identified and stained by the Koreans...could simply be connecting to this interstitial fluid system described above..the name indicating a tissue, interstitium.....I think there are scale issues here....(microscopic cells versus structural anatomy which can be stained and viewed and is constructed out of many cells).
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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The Bonghan system is a newly-discovered circulatory system, which corresponds to classical acupuncture meridians and was discovered in the early 1960s by Bonghan Kim
Really interesting stuff, Red, especially the correspondence to acupuncture meridians. Given the dismissal by the science-y crowd of the viability and reality of acupuncture, it's nice to have this new info in our arsenal for the nay-sayers.

More things in heaven and earth, etc etc etc .....
 

Rufous McKinney

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Given the dismissal by the science-y crowd of the viability and reality of acupuncture,

Well, dismiss acupuncture at your peril. Remove an amazing tool from the tool box.

There is more than one form of "sciency". I suppose some of us noticed that Ron Davis is interested in making observations...in order to develop testable hypotheses. So without systematic observation, where would science ever even begin?

Chinese medicine is based upon- keen observation and repeated observing with very careful documentation...and then this is undertaken over 100s of years.

NASA definition of Science:

What Is Science?
The Short Answer:
Science consists of observing the world by watching, listening, observing, and recording. Science is curiosity in thoughtful action about the world and how it behaves.
Anyone can think like a scientist.
Science is . . .
  • Observing the world.
  • Watching and listening
  • Observing and recording.
Science is curiosity in thoughtful action about the world and how it behaves.
 

Rufous McKinney

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Yes I could have written thousands. Figure that in 2000 bc, 100's of years of observation had already occured and lead to: use these 5 things for this form of That illness in these types of bodies. And bodies vary. There might be 40 routes to achieve one physiological result, and you'd better understand your routes. And include the herbs to counteract the side effect of another herb.

They figured all that out, and we still haven't.
 

Wishful

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Chinese medicine is based upon- keen observation and repeated observing with very careful documentation...and then this is undertaken over 100s of years.

My problem with it is that it is built on a foundation of nonsense: four humours and magic energies. From observations and trial and error, they've come up with exceptions to fit observations onto the flawed foundation. For example, if they claim that a disease is from too much phlegm, then Superdryingherb should treat that, and Soggyherb would make it worse. When they try it and observe the opposite, they cobble together a complex justification to explain it via humours and magic energies, rather than accepting that Soggyherb contains p-menzaldewindle which binds to y-receptors on t-cells.

I can accept that TCM can provide some very useful treatments, such as a certain mold on bitter melons treating a specific disease. I don't accept that the foundational basis of TCM is useful for finding new treatments, or predicting new uses for known herbs.

Can acupuncture treat some conditions? I accept that it can. Does it work via magical energies? I don't accept that. I can accept that it triggers endorphin release, or activates the immune system, or some other such explanation.

Science is curiosity in thoughtful action about the world and how it behaves.

From Wiki: "Science (from the Latin word scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe."

"Testable" is an important part of science. I think TCM fails in that regard. In my made-up example above, the theory is that Superdryingherb would treat a disease of excess phlegm. Science would test that, and accept that theory is wrong. TCM would invent an untestable excuse for why it didn't work: "The patient's eye colour clashed with the blossom colour, causing yin to spiral around yang."
 

Rufous McKinney

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Does it work via magical energies?

My entire point is its not based upon magical energies. Its based upon energies we don't yet fully understand.

Or have no interest in. Nobody in the west is funding- looking at any of that. Unless they can make $$ on it.
 

Rufous McKinney

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I don't accept that the foundational basis of TCM is useful for finding new treatments, or predicting new uses for known herbs.

I receive TCM treatments. I am genetically not a Chinese person. I do not compute with their- observations.

I receive treatment because my highly trained and knowledgeable practioner understands their herbal system well enough to work with a) illness which was unknown 4000 years ago; and b) people who's bodies have different genetics and respond very differently to- various treatments.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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Does it work via magical energies?
I'm guessing that you didn;t read any of @Rufous McKinney 's first posts here, or any of the article links posted therein.


The meridians used by acupuncture have now been supported by the 'new organ' just discovered. By science. Give it a look, it's interesting information, and challenges a lot of the arguments against acupuncture and statements like its use of "....magical ebergies...".

One of the hallmarks of scientific pursuits and thinking is open-mindedness, and the formulation of hypotheses to either prove or disprove various belief systems.
 
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wabi-sabi

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It's certainly interesting to think about what is testable or not from a logical positivist framework. I can see testing whether a certain herb or accupuncture procedure works for a certain condition (and there's probably research on that), but I'm not sure how one would test yin/yang balance or chi energies.
 

Rufous McKinney

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but I'm not sure how one would test yin/yang balance or chi energies.

My version of inbalance is subtly different from your version, most likely. This is why Chinese Traditional medicine, particularly herbal- is Individualized.


We have folks with, say a blood sugar control issue. But various bodies have this issue for various reasons..that are not identical.

Chinese medicine can figure that out and western medicine still hasn't.
 

Rufous McKinney

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I can see testing whether a certain herb or accupuncture procedure works for a certain condition

We have science based hypothesis testing for an herb that has been used in chinese medicine and ayuvedic for a very long time- bitter gourd.

In fact- thats where they got the CHEMICAL for the diabetes PILL. They got it from isolating it out of the herb.

I have many blood sugar management issues And I will not be taking bitter gourd. I listen to my practioner and I don't self prescribe single herbs, ever. Bitter gourd is the WRONG herb to use in MY SYSTEM with MY version of this illness.
 
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