Need lot's of folate, what's wrong?

[Ninan]

I'm struggling with Fred's methylation protocol and so far it's done wonders. I can be up and around and have about 10-12 "active" (in the sense "doing anything at besides resting with my eyes shut") a day instead of just 30 minutes. Lot's of bumps on the road, though.

I've discovered that once I don't get enough of something my need for folate skyrockets. It's been too little C, too little Mg, too little Zn. Now I don't know. I need 10 mgs of folate every day to be able to stand up and keep my arms and legs form shaking. I guess that's some kind of paradoxal folate deficiency?

I take folic acid since I've noticed no difference between the different kinds of folate before and my MTHFR-test shows I don't have mutations. I've been taking 50-100 mgs of zinc since I notice my need for folate goes down when I take zinc. I'm doing this now:

1. Exclude all folic acid and take metafolin instead.
2. Lower B1 and B2 (I've been taking one B Right/day)
3. Doing tests to see if I lack copper or iron (since Zn might deplete those I'm thinking that might be it. Don't dare to experiment with iron or copper without checking my levels though).

Can folic acid cause paradoxal folate deficiency even if you don't have MTHFR-mutations? I guess there might be lots of different problems here? How much folate is normal on Fred's protocol? Before I've only needed 1 mg/day. Any other thoughts on what can cause my high need for folate?

 

[PeterPositive]

Folate works in tandem with B12, do you take any? I suppose if you're following Freddd's protocol you do.
Also according to the same protocol synthetic folic acid is pretty much garbage.

Regardless the MTHFR enzyme issues there must be a reason why, for example, high dose methylfolate is used in products such as Deplin instead of folic acid. They are not one and the same, and in human diet synthetic folic acid does not exist. I'd stick with Metafolin.

Cheers

 

[PeterPositive]

Doing tests to see if I lack copper or iron (since Zn might deplete those I'm thinking that might be it. Don't dare to experiment with iron or copper without checking my levels though).

Yeah that might be a good idea. Your zinc intake is pretty high, I don't think it would be sensible to keep it going for a long time.
With such a high dose you could take a basic of 2-3 mg of copper just avoid depleting it. Typically you take 1/10th of the amount of zinc. So 30mg zinc can be accompanied by 3mg copper.

Cheers

 

[Ninan]

Folate works in tandem with B12, do you take any? I suppose if you're following Freddd's protocol you do.
Also according to the same protocol synthetic folic acid is pretty much garbage.

Regardless the MTHFR enzyme issues there must be a reason why, for example, high dose methylfolate is used in products such as Deplin instead of folic acid. They are not one and the same, and in human diet synthetic folic acid does not exist. I'd stick with Metafolin.

Cheers

I take methyl B12 shots. I haven't noticed any difference between different kinds of folate before and I've been taking folic acid for a few months now. Guess that could be it, though, that it could build up with time. I'll try and see. Still suspect it's something else (too), maybe something with K/Na since I've been taking a lot of Mg. I've been low in all three of them.

 

[Ninan]

Yeah that might be a good idea. Your zinc intake is pretty high, I don't think it would be sensible to keep it going for a long time.
With such a high dose you could take a basic of 2-3 mg of copper just avoid depleting it. Typically you take 1/10th of the amount of zinc. So 30mg zinc can be accompanied by 3mg copper.

Thanks, @PeterPositive. I'll do that. I find copper a bit scary though, I know people who've had copper poisoning.

A more general question: If I lack something (judging from the fact that I need more folate without it and less when I take more of it) then does taking extra of what I lack still deplete other vitamins/minerals? Is the answer yes because taking much of something blocks uptake of others?

How much folate is normal to take while on methylation a protocol?

 

[Ninan]

Oops. I just realized what the problem might be. I've been taking NOW Liver Caps and got great energy from them. I was sure it was milk thistle but I just counted and found I've consumed 8 mgs of additional B12 every day. Must have boosted methylation and that's why I suddenly crave more folate and seem to lack other stuff. I'll stop the Liver caps and see what happens. Never realized there was so much B12 in liver powder.

 

[ahmo]

I was going to suggest liver for copper. You might be getting plenty copper from your current liver intake. Yes, additional 8mg B12 might be causing this. Maybe this shows your intrinsic factor is working well, able to convert that liver to useable B12.

I found my folate needs cut by half when I started using it sublingually, instead of swallowing.

 

[Ninan]

I was going to suggest liver for copper. You might be getting plenty copper from your current liver intake.

That's good to know, then I guess I can rule out copper. Seems there is a lot I don't know about liver...

Yes, additional 8mg B12 might be causing this. Maybe this shows your intrinsic factor is working well, able to convert that liver to useable B12.

At first I had great effect from just 1 mg of cyanocobalamin, so I think it is. But now I need much more, I need methyl shots to make a difference. The additional B12 explains why something has happened but I still don't know what I'm lacking. If it's not just that more B12 makes me crave more folate. But before it's always been because I was low in something so I wonder what it is this time. I actually feel good from higher methylation but I'm afraid to keep it up there since I seem to run out of co-factors fast. And I'm not sure which ones.

I found my folate needs cut by half when I started using it sublingually, instead of swallowing.

I remember trying that once but don't remember what happened. How long before you notice effect? I have effect from oral folate within an hour.

 

[ahmo]

How long before you notice effect? I have effect from oral folate within an hour.

I found this effect immediately. I was truly amazed.

I declined to mention FMN form of B2. I don't see that it has an obvious role for you, but I don't actually know too much about it. I assume (!) you don't have all your snps, as you mention MTHFR only. Certainly for some of us w/ MAO defect, FMN can be amazing. I wrote about my experience here. There's a thread, 'B2 I love you', people talking about + effects of B2. (there's also another, titled something like No fan of B2).

Regardless of whether it's B2, FMN, or other, some people find that surprisingly small amounts of co factors make huge differences. Well, I guess that;s what you're experiencing, too, from the liver.Micro-managing our biochemistry... we're all Biohackers

 

[Ninan]

I found this effect immediately. I was truly amazed.

Great, I'll try that tomorrow. Now it's bedtime here and I'm on my usual magnesium high. (It decreases my need for folate so I have to be careful not to take too much before I take Mg or I might want to go for a run or something.)

I'll read the B2 thread, thanks!

And yeah, biohackers. Quite successful sometimes too. We should get more credit from doctors for solving our own problems.

 

[PeterPositive]

Thanks, @PeterPositive. I'll do that. I find copper a bit scary though, I know people who've had copper poisoning.

Sure, if you can test your levels it would be better.
My advice is to stop all the supplements that will affect your tests (e.g. zinc if you're testing serum zinc) 5-6 days before and see how your levels are.

Last year I tested with zinc (among other things) without stopping the supplement and the level was way too high. This year I repeated the test stopping the supplement and I was insufficient, even taking 30mg every day for the previous 3 months.

So in my case I "burn" zinc pretty rapidly and I can take 30-60mg without causing accumulations. Similarly my copper levels are borderline low, so I will keep taking a basic 2-3mg dose for some time.

Indeed without this information the risk is to induce other problems, especially if megadosing.

A more general question: If I lack something (judging from the fact that I need more folate without it and less when I take more of it) then does taking extra of what I lack still deplete other vitamins/minerals? Is the answer yes because taking much of something blocks uptake of others?

It's difficult to say but generally speaking megadoses of anything can change the balance of other nutrients, especially after months of continuous supplementation.

How much folate is normal to take while on methylation a protocol?

There is no set value. It depends on each individual case. In theory one should check via lab tests if GSH and SAMe have reached sufficiency.

cheers

 

[Ninan]

@ahmo Sublingual folate works for me too. Much faster than when I swallow them. Thanks for the tip! I'll see if I can cut down my dose.

@PeterPositive Ok, thanks. I try to take what my body seems to want to keep down my need for folate but sometimes that goes way beyond recommended doses and there is domino effects. I'm going to see someone about this, I hope she can help me get my protocol straightened out.

 

[ahmo]

@Ninan I forgot to add: For me, as for some with MTHFR snp, I found that vegetable folinic was blocking methylfolate. I've had to quit green veggies. My folate needs were halved when I stopped green veg.

 

[Critterina]

Thanks, @PeterPositive. I'll do that. I find copper a bit scary though, I know people who've had copper poisoning.

When I looked into copper testing, the conclusion I found was that it's not really useful until you're really really sick. Take a look at this article:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/3/859S.full

Best of luck to you!

 

[skyebean]

Biohackers!!! I love this term!!!

 

[ahmo]

Biohackers!!! I love this term!!!

yep, that's us: Citizen science Biohackers.