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N3 sleep pre and post treatment with Ayurvedic medicine

62milestogojoe

What's a forum then?
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221
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UK
Just a sketch using Oura to illustrate a patient experiencing deep, refreshing sleep following Ayurvedic treatment and another patient just embarking on treatment.

Patient following treatment
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Patient undergoing treatment
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It’s difficult to explain to medics/family/friends and colleagues just how undermining constant lack of refreshing sleep is. For more details on the dangers of disrupted sleep see an earlier post here
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/importance-of-deep-refreshing-sleep.53438/
 

Hip

Senior Member
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It's very interesting to see the Oura ring sleep tracker being used in to gauge the response of ME/CFS patients to a treatment. Given that one of the cardinal symptoms of ME/CFS is unrefreshing sleep, measuring sleep parameters seems like a good idea.
 

62milestogojoe

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UK
Hi Hip
Without doubt the keystone event in the first cycle of treatment in 2016 was achieving N3 for the first time in 3 years. Though I did not have access to Oura to provide data I certainly knew I had experienced N3: such a deeply refreshed ‘non ME’ sensation. It signalled the beginning of remission.

Just a note that might interest you; the data regarding a diagnosed ME patient currently undergoing treatment and lacking N3 should have been supported by a second patient who is undergoing treatment too.

This second patient was diagnosed in Israel with fibromyalgia by one doctor and ME/CFS by another. I used Oura on this patient on 3 nights and discovered that though his sleep was disrupted, his N3 was healthy. As a result, I believe this patient, though undoubtedly ill does in fact have fibromyalgia and not ME. I believe Oura could be used to differentiate between these 2 sets of diseases potentially.
 
Messages
61

Accelerometers
measure movement, which is ineffective in accurately distinguishing between the different stages of sleep because we move the same amount whether we are in light or deep sleep.
Ballistocardiography or measuring heart-rate variability is a more effective way to determine sleep physiology than accelerometer-based sleep trackers because our heart-rate is known to increase and decrease while transitioning through specific sleep stages.
For example, our heart-rate slows down when transitioning from wakefulness to light-sleep, increases slightly during REM, and then becomes the slowest during deep-sleep, so ballistocardiography a better indicator of sleep physiology than accelerometer-based sleep trackers.
However, neither of these processes are as effective as EEG sleep monitoring because EEG allows for the most precise measurements of activity. With EEG, we can measure the exact frequency, amplitude and type of brain-wave that’s responsible for each sleep cycle, and what’s even better is that you can manipulate these frequencies to deepen sleep — this can’t be done with ballistocardiography.
https://sleeptrackers.io/qa-dreem-active-eeg-sleep-wearable/


Oura combines this with data gleaned from the inbuilt accelerometer to analyse how the body reacts to certain events throughout your day.
Oura observes heart-rate, respiration, body temperature and movement, but instead of using EEG (brain-wave) sensors to detect sleep staging – it combines pulse volume and 3D accelerometer data to interpret stages of sleep and distinguish between light sleep, deep sleep and REM.
https://sleeptrackers.io/oura-ring/

From my own experience
The quality of the definition of the phases of sleep in such trackers does not have any value. Determination of the pulse on the finger, not a pair of electrodes. And not the identity of these parameters EEG parameters.

Reception of adrenaline blockers will lead to misunderstandings
 
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62milestogojoe

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Hi olegsel
First an opportunity to say best wishes for 2019. I confess to being a little confused by your post, I guess the dangers of inconsistency in cut and paste can be a hazard and I am going to match the heinous application of cut and paste with an equally heinous anecdote so that we can point fingers at each other!

In 1987, prior to commencement of pilot training, I had to undergo a rigorous medical which included EEG. Effective old tech. I confess to being intimidated by the process- the technician took 30 minutes to plug in all the trodes correctly and then the overseeing medic insisted repeatedly that I not move my head at all during the process, which lasted 30 minutes. This was difficult to comply with.

Now, given that an adult tosses and turns 30-40 times a night I suspect the advice of a qualified technician/ medic might be required to ascertain efficacy of the exercise in a sleep monitoring experiment. No, personally I am happy with the data Oura provides.

But EEG! I would give my ring finger for access to EEG during the phase of treatment here known as Shirodhara in which very warm oil is run across the forehead for 45 minutes continuously in a pulsed but repetitive manner. The patient is supine for the entire process. This can engender a very deep meditative brain state but again without EEG to monitor changes in electrical activity we are left with anecdotal evidence.

It is my belief ( and again I apologise) that the shirodhara technique works in the same way as pulsed electromagnetic therapy and is able to modulate brain activity and perhaps even modulate neuroinflammatory processes thus enabling N3 starved ME patients access back into restorative sleep.

So much to explore! But resources are few and I guess we have to continue to explore as individuals and small groups in an attempt to find answers to the many questions this destructive disease poses.

Good luck this year!
 
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echobravo

Keep searching, the answer is out there
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The quality of the definition of the phases of sleep in such trackers does not have any value

That is suprising!

I have owned the Oura (2nd version) for almost 2 months now, and the sleep data it produces seems reliable to me.

The ring has now been tested on 4 different people, and they all show quite different nightly sleep data, e.g. wrt. REM and NREM sleep (which are the variables we are most interested in looking at, espcially N2 and N3 deep sleep, in the "ayurveda experiment" in Varkala).

I tried to find some information on the internet to support the claim that how the Oura tracker defines it's "phases of sleep" is not accurate ("does not have any value"), but cannot find that anyone has made such a proposition.

The ring I own is Oura's 2nd version of this product. I would guess that they must have used EEG as a part their product development process to ensure that the sleep data their ring measures and the algorithms they use to recognize REM, NREM (N1, N2 and N3) based on these data - is as reliable as what a EEG sleep analysis would produce?

I think you should notify Oura that their product is not accurate w.r.t. sleep analysis, if you can back up your claim that "The quality of the definition of the phases of sleep in such trackers does not have any value". I am sure the Fins would be happy to discuss the matters, and welcome any ideas how their product and algorithms could be improved. Please let us know how it goes.
 
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I did not see the word - electroencephalogram.
In the middle of this year I was very interested in the heart rate variation parameter. As an indirect indicator of the work of the vegetative system. Its conditional parts are parasympathetic and sympathetic. The higher the variation and the lower the heart rate, the better sleep is possible. But this is not the same as the electroencephalographic measurement of sleep quality.

Pulse measurement with optical sensors rather than electrodes is highly questionable. The theory of heart rate variation has a lot of contrived.

http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...ability-principles-and-science-and-practical-measuring-devices/

Read this interview. They themselves say that they do not use EEG. https://sleeptrackers.io/in-conversation-with-the-ceo-of-oura/

@Hip
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
There was a study which found a reasonably good correlation between the sleep stages (light, deep and REM) detected by devices like the Fitbit Charge 2, and those measured by proper laboratory equipment.

So sleep trackers like the Fitbit and Oura ring seem reasonably accurate.
 
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Messages
61
Reception of adrenaline blockers and not mobility in bed and according to the tracker patterns you sleep deeply ...
You wake up in the middle of the night and lie motionless - the stage of REM sleep ...
The tracker is not bad for tracking the number of steps and heart rate to 110-120 beats per minute. And then you need a chest heart rate monitor with electrodes, if it is heart rate higher.
 

echobravo

Keep searching, the answer is out there
Messages
137
Location
Norway
I did not see the word - electroencephalogram.

Read this interview. They themselves say that they do not use EEG. https://sleeptrackers.io/in-conversation-with-the-ceo-of-oura/

Sorry for being unclear. What I meant was that Oura must have used these advanced sleep monitoring devices (like EEG) in their lab during their product development process to ensure that the Oura ring does provide valid and reliable sleep data.

I think, for our purposes in this "small research project" going on in Varkala, the ring does provide valid sleep data that can actually show how REM and NREM sleep is affected during the coarse of a Panchakarma treatment. Which is what we are looking for. We will have to wait and see a couple of weeks if there will be an improvement in NREM sleep (and deep sleep (N3) in particular).

The higher the variation and the lower the heart rate, the better sleep is possible.

I also find the HRV measurements very interesting, @olegsel, since it seems to be one of the few ways we can monitor the state of the autonomic nervous system (ANS). It seems that healing (tissue rebuild/rejuvenation) will not be good unless our ANS is in parasympathetic mode ("rest & digest").

I would be very interested in any research that correlates sleep quality with high HRV and low heart rate!

Actually, since the Oura tracks both HRV and pulse, I have been wanting to look at the trends for those variables too, for the persons that are currently undergoing the Panchakarma treatment in Varkala, Kerala, India.
 
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