My CFS experience ending with BARD and ChatGPT AI

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54
I was diagnosed with CFS by Stanford's Dr Montoya many years ago. My symptom set was unique as it is with almost anyone. I've been to Stanford many times, Mayo Clinic, UCSF and John Hopkins in trying to track down the cause. It was all a bust. I have never encountered a doctor willing to give more than 45 minutes to my problem. I have never seen a doctor willing to discuss underlying medical causes that I have researched.

I have written here about things I've discovered, some helped a little but most it turns out were chasing secondary problems that flow from my one central problem. I have read 100's of medical research papers along the way trying to understand possibilities while slowly gaining some understanding of human biology. We are essentially a sack of salt water with groups of specialized cells in the trillions mostly floating in it all communicating for the common good via some sort of communication receptor on their outside interface to that salt water. Various messenger chemicals get distributed mostly via the blood and float along until they find their receptor pair.

In this In reading of many medical papers they would never answer my so closely related questions around my symptoms or test results meaning. Of course they wouldn't as the research typically was exploring one biological issue closely related to my questions but I was always left knowing more, getting closer but frustrated I couldn't just speak with the authors. In the mean time I had given up on doctors as "only technicians" and not engineers or scientists that have curiosity. My symptoms worsened while I slept. I discovered by desperation that a little caffeine before bed and around 3AM stopped the horrific symptoms. My CFS was due to a sleep issue. Two Stanford sleep studies showed nothing.

About 6 years ago a cardiologist made an interesting comment to me while investigating heart related issues. Basically my heart was ok but he made the comment that my problem seemed "metabolic" in nature. Well it turns out he was correct in a few ways.

Then UCSF discovered that my leg muscles had about 15% of the mitochondria had a 6kb deletion. That's very bad since the 3rd step in the electron chain was shut off. But alas I had 85% working making ATP and doing other good things. Suspicious! Turns out that mitochondria make ATP and ATP is broken down to cAMP ( cyclic adenosine mono phosphate) which is the substrate for a critical pathway.

Then a UCSF muscle neurologist made a comment that caffeine is a complex molecule that had other profound effects. I then learned that my heart rate was dropping below 40 while sleeping and the low Oxygen while sleeping due to slow heart and saturation in the low 90% range were setting this in motion. So I was able to prove this and I got a cardiac pacemaker and the symptoms stopped. Then after about 4 months they started coming back. The human body biology is quite adaptable. What the pacemaker fixed, it adapted back and it came back but not quite as bad. At first adding O2 while I slept helped.

I studied what caffeine does and followed up on its function as a PED. A PED ( Viagra is a PED) breaks down another molecule called cyclic AMP (cAMP). Cyclic AMP in turns regulates everything from metabolism to the immune system via another molecule called PKA which activates various genes in the nucleus. This varyies from cell type to cell type. . Caffeine is a general as opposed to specific PED and by interfering with cAMP. This about where Google BARD and CHATGPT come in. I now knew enough about the pathway from papers but could ask meaningful questions of the AI tools from Google BARD and OpenAI/MS CHATGP. Very specific questions. I had begun to suspect a chronically low cAMP might be my problem.

So I asked one at a time about my symptoms. I have very high IgE ( allergies), low T and B cells and IgG subclasses and total. So asked BARD how the cAMP pathway could effect the immune system. The answer described all of these and why. Interesting. Low cAMP slows the heart especially at night. I asked it about constipation and blood circulation and it said those are both smooth muscle and it would make them contract - constipation and low blood flow. It also said It causes a parasympathetic dominance - slow intestines. That explained the muscle pain while sleeping and intestinal problems. I asked more but the most important question was why this would happen and are there any drugs to artificially increase cAMP. It gave me the answers. I won't tell you the "why" right now but the drug was Forskolin. It comes from a plant and can be bought on Amazon. So what the hell, the doctors are mostly brain dead, I bought it and took it. It eliminated most of my symptoms like magic. That's not the end since I'm now trying to eliminate the cause which is due to adaption as I thought and will take months. It was a drug causing the problem. Not on doctors questioned. But medical papers combined with my suspicions, the caffeine link and Artificial Intelligence ( both BARD and ChatGPT) combined did the trick.

So I would strongly recommend anyone who is searching the medical papers and looking for answers, once you know the right questions, try Goog BARD and Open AI's ChatGPT to get the last little details. You need to know what to ask but if you do, its the bridge after the medical papers.

Good Luck
 

hapl808

Senior Member
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2,446
I find GPT4 is better than Bard, and Claude Instant can be good for brainstorming (but Claude Instant gets a lot of stuff wrong, so you can't rely on its answers - just jumping off points).

I've found forskolin seems to help some of my allergy issues - I take it at the moment in small doses daily. Funny enough, caffeine can help me, but I have the opposite issue of constant tachycardia. At night my HR will go down only into the 70's, and my Garmin rarely shows my Battery (HRV) improving as much as I'd like. I've also experimented a bit with PDE (Cialis), but it seems to improve energy but not PEM threshold for me. Ibudilast is also a PDE (different one, though), but I haven't tried that yet.

I feel like another step or two improvement in AI might make a big difference, but I'm hoping it's not restricted to medical professionals or something (Claude 2 just refuses too many questions entirely).
 

Wishful

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Amazing sleuthing. Good work.

Do you still think that you had fit the ME criteria, PEM and all, or was this one of those medical mysteries that could be vaguely interpreted as ME-like? That's a danger with easy answers: doctors are quick to apply a label and never look further.
 
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Yes mostly. In my research of the cAMP pathwy, it is capable when disrupted, dysregulated or out of synch with the circadian rythmm, can create most or all of the CFS/ME criteria.
 
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The cAMP pathway is very complex. At a simple level, increases in norepineprine or analogs activate a G protein coupled receptor on the cell which increases AC which is a enzyme that breaks down mitochondria created ATP to cAMP which increases the cAMP. PEDs such as caffeine inhibit PEDs from breaking down cAMP which reduces cAMP. The increases in cAMP activates PKA which leads to many effects. These include activating certain cell type specific genes in the nucleus to produce proteins which go off and activate things like the immune system, smooth muscles, heart cells etc..Anything that enters to alter ATP, AC, PED, cAMP or PKA can have modulation effects. Different cells such as brain neurons. muscle, liver, smooth muscle, heart, have different genes activated and different effects. If you look at the possible effects, it can create all the CFS/ME criteria. Given the many feedback paths, the effects can come back and alter the path at any level.

https://www.cusabio.com/pathway/cAMP-signaling-pathway.html

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Messages
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I find GPT4 is better than Bard, and Claude Instant can be good for brainstorming (but Claude Instant gets a lot of stuff wrong, so you can't rely on its answers - just jumping off points).

I've found forskolin seems to help some of my allergy issues - I take it at the moment in small doses daily. Funny enough, caffeine can help me, but I have the opposite issue of constant tachycardia. At night my HR will go down only into the 70's, and my Garmin rarely shows my Battery (HRV) improving as much as I'd like. I've also experimented a bit with PDE (Cialis), but it seems to improve energy but not PEM threshold for me. Ibudilast is also a PDE (different one, though), but I haven't tried that yet.

I feel like another step or two improvement in AI might make a big difference, but I'm hoping it's not restricted to medical professionals or something (Claude 2 just refuses too many questions entirely).
I ask both BARD and GPT4 the same questions. I synthesize what I need. They give good answers when used together.

Forskolin shifts the immune system toward TH2 and increased IgE but lowers TH1 and T cells and B cells and therefore IgG. It basically activates AC which in turn breaks down more ATP to cAMP by enzymatically removing 2 phosphate groups to an Adenosine MonoPhosphate. PEDs then PED enzymatically breaks cAMP down for recycling as metabolic junk. The Adenosine is a neurotransmitter in its own right and can cause tachycardia and is involved in RLS.

Forskolin slows the heart so the tachycardia is something odd is going on. I was diagnosed with Sick Sinus Syndrome where my heart rate goes bonkers every now and then with tachycardia. I suspect that was caused by an adaption in my hearts sinus rhythm cells by the cAMP problem.

PDEIs ( inhibitors - like caffeine) and PED itself is bit cell specific. Cialis is a bad choice since its designed only to effect certain erection based cells.

Caffeine and methylxanthines are the broadest PEDs effecting smooth muscle ( intestines and blood vessels and lungs). There are about 13 PEDs all effecting different cell types. So you need to guess at what you want to accomplish in your hypothesis and get the right PED.

My biggest point is that the AI tools like BARD and GPT4 are really good at answering frustrating questions not answered in the millions of medical papers on PUBMED and elsewhere.
 
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hapl808

Senior Member
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2,446
Forskolin slows the heart so the tachycardia is something odd is going on.

I think I didn't communicate that well - I was saying that my problem is tachycardia and it had sounded like your problem was the opposite (low heart rate at night).

Forskolin helps me a bit, but nothing dramatic. What dosage do you usually take?

When you say PED, do you mean performance enhancing drugs? I was a bit confused on the acronym. At first I thought you meant PDE (eg. PDEIs like Cialis or caffeine or Ibudilast), but then it seems like you're making a distinction between PDE (phosphodiesterase) and PED? Sorry if I'm asking an obvious question - I just got a bit confused and might be misunderstanding what you meant as it's not an area I'm very well informed. It seems cAMP is involved in whatever we have, and I've experimented with caffeine, viagra and cialis, even dark chocolate, etc. But I don't have a good enough understanding to really grasp what levers should help, so it seems somewhat random for me, and most of my improvements are quite minor. I'm pretty severe overall, though.

But totally agree - I love discussing things with LLMs where doctors are useless and wholly uninterested. I have hundreds of pages with GPT4 trying to figure out why I get reflux issues after cognitive exertion, phone conversations, etc. Haven't figured it out, but it gives way more useful suggestions and thoughts.
 
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Over time I believe my "dysregulated cAMP pathway" in the sinoatrial node cells in the heart cause a lack of synchronization Sick Sinus Syndrome ( SSS) that fires the heart signal that is observed on an EKG timing all the various functions. Another oddity was to slow my overall heart rate continuously ( rather than sporadically as in SSS) so my heart rate during either deep sleep or REM dropped as low as the 30's. This in turn when combined with the contraction of smooth muscle blood vessels reduced the O2 available at the cellular level starving O2 like being in the death zone on Mt Everest. I suspect this was the main cause of my mitochondrial 15% 6kb deletion that UCSF found in my thigh muscle biopsy. A 6kb deletion is about 1/4 of the mitochondrial genes just gone.

The mitochondria also uses nuclear genes so losing 6kb in the actual mDNA just blows out those mitochondria as ATP generators. The electron transport chain just doesn't work at stage 3. That was biopsied in 2016 by UCSF so now it could be worse 7 years later. Since the ATP is used in part to create cAMP enzymatically via AC, the decreased ATP could play a role if the 15% has grown to say 30-40%. That would be bad. ATP production is lowered during sleep so that could be why sleep is a problem - a wild guess. That to would be very bad.

My mistake. I meant PDE and PDEI ( not PED) which a phosphodiesterase not PED ( my memory sucks) . PDEI drugs inhibits the PED and therfore the breakdown. PDEI1 through PDEI13 are drugs that inhibit that breakdown where the number represents a category and sorta the cell types it targets. A list can be found in this paper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1760738/
Caffeine and other Methylxanthines like theophyilline cover multiple cell types. Drugs are designed as PDEIx to inhibit the cAMP breakdown thereby allowing AC to break down more ATP into cAMP therfore letting it rise. Forskolin activates AC directly making more cAMP irrespective of PDEs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3504441/

PDE is the enzyme that breaks down cAMP into metabolic pieces and lowers it. PDEI's inhibit this and make it rise. Cialis and Viagra are PDEI5's that inhibit the cells associated with relaxing the smooth muscle allowing blood to enter the penis. Other PDEs do this for everything from heart, liver to lung cells. That is why the Methylxanthine theophylline was used for asthma since it relaxed the smooth muscle in the lung blood vessels relieving asthma. PDE's are also used for blood pressure and heart failure.

A lowered and dysregulated cAMP causes a parasympathic bias versus sympathetic. This could cause things like constipation and POTS.

If you look at the simplified diagram

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/l...PMC3&id=3504441_cshperspect-SIG-011148_F2.jpg

and how this process turns nuclear genes on and off creating various proteins like cytokines ( altering the immune system) on a cell type basis, one can see how many issues can arise from a cAMP pathway problem.

I've not seen much interest in this as a possible cause of CFS/ME and its variants and given what I've learned, I'm surprised.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
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2,446
My mistake. I meant PDE and PDEI ( not PED) which a phosphodiesterase not PED ( my memory sucks) . PDEI drugs inhibits the PED and therfore the breakdown. PDEI1 through PDEI13 are drugs that inhibit that breakdown where the number represents a category and sorta the cell types it targets. A list can be found in this paper.

No worries - I thought I might be misunderstanding since you've gone much deeper on this than I have. (And my memory is terrible these days - have to look things up repeatedly.)

Forskolin activates AC directly making more cAMP irrespective of PDEs.

What dosages or types of forskolin supplements have you used? Seems to be a wide range available.

A lowered and dysregulated cAMP causes a parasympathic bias versus sympathetic. This could cause things like constipation and POTS.

Besides the usual PEM crashes and such, some of my main constant problems are: muscle weakness and pain, brain fog exacerbated by any cognitive or physical activity, headaches and migraines, excess phlegm production and horrible acid reflux (strangely triggered by mostly cognitive activity), constant coughing and sensitive respiratory allergic reactions, etc.

Things I've taken lately: slippery elm, marshmallow root, allicin, forskolin, glycine, NAC, taurine, magnesium, mullein, silica, and on and on.

I really wish there were doctors who worked like this, and I'm really looking forward to a possibly more advanced AI LLM. I've already gotten so much helpful info from them, but one step more advanced and maybe…

You might find this thread of interest on a forum about POIS (post orgasmic illness syndrome). The main poster is someone with a lot of biochemical knowledge and he has some interesting breakdowns on a similar path. It always sounded promising to me, but I could never quite make it work for my symptoms.

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.0
 

roller

wiggle jiggle
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775
long time ago, i read on reliable information, that viagra and other PDEs were NOT very specific. in fact, they were quite broad pde-inhibitors.

viagra helped me huge time, as nothing ever before. from zombie to alive.
i didnt take it for any typical viagra-applications (am female).
 

Wayne

Senior Member
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Ashland, Oregon
once you know the right questions, try Goog BARD and Open AI's ChatGPT to get the last little details.
Hi @pgrovetom -- Interestng story, thanks for sharing. My first thought was congratulations on getting good answers for yourself. My second thought was, "Don't doctors have access to Open AI and ChatGPT???
 
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54
Hi @pgrovetom -- Interestng story, thanks for sharing. My first thought was congratulations on getting good answers for yourself. My second thought was, "Don't doctors have access to Open AI and ChatGPT???
My opinion for what its worth is that doctors will eventually be relegated to "technicians" using AI but today they are so stuck on their model of 45 minutes using their own limited knowledge, they would never use new tools like BARD and GPT4. The doctors I've seen rarely even try. One opinion.
 
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No worries - I thought I might be misunderstanding since you've gone much deeper on this than I have. (And my memory is terrible these days - have to look things up repeatedly.)



What dosages or types of forskolin supplements have you used? Seems to be a wide range available.



Besides the usual PEM crashes and such, some of my main constant problems are: muscle weakness and pain, brain fog exacerbated by any cognitive or physical activity, headaches and migraines, excess phlegm production and horrible acid reflux (strangely triggered by mostly cognitive activity), constant coughing and sensitive respiratory allergic reactions, etc.

Things I've taken lately: slippery elm, marshmallow root, allicin, forskolin, glycine, NAC, taurine, magnesium, mullein, silica, and on and on.

I really wish there were doctors who worked like this, and I'm really looking forward to a possibly more advanced AI LLM. I've already gotten so much helpful info from them, but one step more advanced and maybe…

You might find this thread of interest on a forum about POIS (post orgasmic illness syndrome). The main poster is someone with a lot of biochemical knowledge and he has some interesting breakdowns on a similar path. It always sounded promising to me, but I could never quite make it work for my symptoms.

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.0
I've been taking a 500mg Forskolin complex ( fancy way of saying the plant Coleus Forskolii) before bed and upon awakening.

Besides the usual PEM crashes and such, some of my main constant problems are: muscle weakness and pain, brain fog exacerbated by any cognitive or physical activity, headaches and migraines, excess phlegm production and horrible acid reflux (strangely triggered by mostly cognitive activity), constant coughing and sensitive respiratory allergic reactions, etc.

I have all of this and more. Constipation, awakening feeling awful, a weird non standard asthma ( phlegm based), neuropathy that comes and goes.

I looked at that thread and its 29 pages long - yikes. If you just look at the tutorial like paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3504441/
its obvious the cAMP pathway has been researched for 50 years and is among the most critical at regulating almost every system in the body including the brain. There are many less Global pathways like the KREBS cycle considered the basis of multicellular life and the mitochondria, the cAMP pathway is intimately involved in body wide control of everything with cAMP being a key second messenger while norepinephrine ( sympathetic nervous system) its first and main messenger but not its only one. Bottom line - problems in this pathway can cause all the CFS/ME problems even if its due to a rogue first messenger that's either not norepinephrine or something working in concert more directly as Forskolin does. Its worth a look.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
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2,446
My second thought was, "Don't doctors have access to Open AI and ChatGPT???

Doctors also have access to PubMed and to the reported experience of patients - but they ignore both if they contradict what they already believe to be true. Wouldn't it be amazing to have a physician who listened to you, used AI and read research papers and forums, etc. Doesn't really seem to exist.

I looked at that thread and its 29 pages long - yikes. If you just look at the tutorial like paper

It's long, but if you just read some of the posts by Nanna he has some very interesting approaches (I believe this is related to his area of research and expertise, so it's quite helpful how he approaches various symptoms and pathways).

I've been taking a 500mg Forskolin complex ( fancy way of saying the plant Coleus Forskolii) before bed and upon awakening.

I'm currently just taking a 100mg one (standardized to 10%, so 10mg effective). What symptoms has it eliminated or improved, and which ones unaffected?
 

MonkeyMan

Senior Member
Messages
426
Brilliant work, @pgrovetom. As I and others have written on this board, AI/Machine learning is likely to be what solves ME/CFS, and you've provided a fine example of its potential.

I'm not smart enough to delve into the deep science like you did, but I've ordered Forskolin from Amazon and am hoping against hope that it will help me since a good night's sleep aggravates my symptoms greatly.
 
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54
Brilliant work, @pgrovetom. As I and others have written on this board, AI/Machine learning is likely to be what solves ME/CFS, and you've provided a fine example of its potential.

I'm not smart enough to delve into the deep science like you did, but I've ordered Forskolin from Amazon and am hoping against hope that it will help me since a good night's sleep aggravates my symptoms greatly.
I'e seen where many me/cfs suffers read medical papers and try and understand the possible mechanisms underlying them. They also try supplements or meications as trials to minize symproms. But most of us dont have a PHd in physiology, biology or other deep knowledge on the human body. Both BARD Chat GPT are not perfect but really help tying all the research papers together by answering questions. In my case I dont have a solution but the Forskolin seems helpful workaround.

Ill ask the UCSF mitochondria DNA doctor next week and hope he doesnt think Im crazy.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
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2,446
Both BARD Chat GPT are not perfect but really help tying all the research papers together by answering questions. In my case I dont have a solution but the Forskolin seems helpful workaround.

You may have already seen it, but looks like Bard updated to Gemini today. That was expected next year, but already seems to have been rolled out today.
 
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