Muscle pain and stiffness

SOC

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What is behind muscle pain and stiffness? Is it a cytokine thing, or is one of our common pathogens particularly likely to cause muscle aches?

My very sudden onset illness was remarkable for the degree of muscle aches and stiffness (and cognitive dysfunction). Now, even though the pain is ordinarily under control, the first thing that shows up with PEM/PENE is muscle aches and stiffness. My joints pop when I rotate them and I become clumsy and stiff. It's like flu-like muscle aches, but worse.

If I had a clue as to what's at the root of this symptom, I might be able to moderate it if I know I have to overdo. Any ideas?
 
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Have you tried to take an anti-inflammatory during/after exertion? It can give you some relief as it might help with the unusually strong inflammatory cytokine reaction to exertion.
 
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i use the off name brand muscle rubs sometimes help sometimes not...heating pad helps sometimes...epsom salt bath...pain medications...usually laying down though with pain medicatons and heating pad helps and i watch tv to take my mind off it as much as i can...

if you can or if you havent already maybe see doctor if need mri to see whats going on...i have alot of back and siatic nerver problems...i have fibro/cfs and always hurt like crazy everywehre..but after a fall not long ago my upper back hurts like a pinched nerve doctor thinks it is a pinched nerve or i damaged disc in fall but i couldnt afford the mri..the doctor is great and understood and told me to put muscle rubs on and heat..and the pain medications..


i hope you feel better soon take care
 

Sushi

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What is behind muscle pain and stiffness? Is it a cytokine thing, or is one of our common pathogens particularly likely to cause muscle aches?...

If I had a clue as to what's at the root of this symptom, I might be able to moderate it if I know I have to overdo. Any ideas?
Could be cytokines and inflammation. So hard to know from one to another of us. I forget, have you tried LDN? If not, it might help. I has for others.

Best,
Sushi
 
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Hi SOC, I've found magnesium supplements to help a lot for muscle pain. As hatt suggests epsom salt baths can be great. My muscles can actually feel "good" sometimes after an epsom salts bath, which is kind of remarkable when you have ME!
 

heapsreal

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At a guess i think our pain is due to inflammation/cytokines, outside of meds my doc has recommended antioxidants as he thinks oxidation is behind the inflammation. I have found pain increases when i have stopped taking antioxidants. Balancing hormones can help to, dhea is known to reduce the effects of inflammatory cytokines especially il6.

cheers!!!
 

SOC

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Have you tried to take an anti-inflammatory during/after exertion? It can give you some relief as it might help with the unusually strong inflammatory cytokine reaction to exertion.
I took ibuprofen once the aches started. It helps a bit. Are you thinking is might be more effective if I take it proactively, ie when I think I may have to overdo? I didn't think I had done enough to cause PENE, but obviously I was wrong. Next time I'll take something if there's any possibility I'll be overdoing. ;)

The interesting thing is that the muscle aches, stiffness, and weakness/clumsiness are the only symptoms so far. Keeping my fingers crossed that I miss the exhaustion, swollen glands, etc, etc. :D
 

SOC

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So we're thinking this kind of muscles aches is because of inflammatory cytokines? I'm taking a lot of antioxidants, but it probably can't hurt to increase them during PENE. I'll try magnesium supplements, too.

Now that I don't have house guests, I'll try an Epsom salt bath.

Thanks for your help, everybody!
 

taniaaust1

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Excess lactic acid buildup in muscles can be happening to. There is an old study somewhere which showed ME/CFS patients having well over 300 times the normal buildup with exercise.
...

I used to find one thing which helps me is a really hot bath... putting heat on affected areas. I thou couldnt do that much nowdays due to the POTS.
 

Firestormm

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Lactic acid is certainly something I have heard about though I didn't pick up on any solutions to it unfortunately, but about 2 years ago I was prescribed Baclofen and it certainly helps take the edge off.

Before I started taking Baclofen the aches were unbearable. Since then, if I forget to take them or the pharmacy mess up my repeat script, the aches/pain is worse again. So I would give a thumps-up for Baclofen (muscle relaxant) and suggest you maybe have a word with the old GP/Physician.
 
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If you think it's likely cytokines then you could try antanabine (antabloc or so it's called) a try - a newly discovered compound in tobacco (!) which reduces inflammatory cytokines in the body. This could explain why some feel better when they smoke (as reported here). While it may sound crazy at first, it is now already considered as a possible revolutionary treatment for Alzheimers as it also reduces amyloid. I just started it and can't say much about it, but it is already been widely discussed, from chronic inflammation forums to athletes and marathon runner forums. Could be a breakthrough..

So we're thinking this kind of muscles aches is because of inflammatory cytokines? I'm taking a lot of antioxidants, but it probably can't hurt to increase them during PENE. I'll try magnesium supplements, too.

Now that I don't have house guests, I'll try an Epsom salt bath.

Thanks for your help, everybody!
 

Jemal

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A few days ago my muscle pain and stiffness suddenly exploded like tenfold. The pain is unbearable (it's like my skeleton is on fire) and it seems my strength is gone. I can't pick up my children anymore, it's difficult to make fists and I keep dropping stuff. This is new for me, I never had it this bad. What could be happening? I am taking Ibuprofen like candy, but it ain't helping much. Going to see my GP tomorrow. I didn't excercise or anything, I got this increase in pain seemingly out of nowhere.

(And all this happening a few days after I made a post saying that generally my ME/CFS has been improving, aaargh)
 

snowathlete

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Sorry to hear about your pain. I don't think mine has been as bad as yours but I do get pain and a lot of aches and stiffness. Massages are good but I can no longer afford them. Firm is best.
Physcio on my legs helped but the treatment was very painful.
Stiffness, I am now trying stretches each day as a routine and that might help. I also hurt my back recently, in a fall I think, and that is agonising. I am hope that the stretches help repair the damaged muscle, assuming that is what it is.
I don't know about cause, but I know my muscles all over are lumpy like they never were before the ME. I don't know why, or if this is common or not?
 

SOC

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I'm fortunate (in this circumstance) that I have a very high pain threshold, so these muscle aches don't affect me as badly as they do others. My body notices -- I'm stiff and clumsy and can't sleep and generally feel crumby -- but my mind doesn't register it as very much pain. My pain is not as severe as that suffered by many PWME. I really shouldn't be complaining. :ashamed: Cymbalta keeps the everyday pain under control, but these flares can still be a problem.

I took extra magnesium, and added it to my daily regime and increased my flax oil significantly (I needed to do that anyway). Today the aches and stiffness are better, although not gone. I'm trying to avoid ibuprofen during flares because I've heard it suppresses the immune system and is tough on the stomach, which seems like a bad idea since I just went through a bout of food poisoning. But if the aches keep me from sleeping again, I'll resort to ibuprofen anyway.

On the positive side, if this is a flare, it's a pretty mild one -- some muscle aches and maybe a little bit of swollen glands. Hopefully this is a good sign. :D
 

maddietod

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I'm doing methylation protocols, so I started thinking about potassium. I went through old tests, going back 10 years, and all of them show me at the bottom of normal. Methylation crashes potassium in some people, so I started taking it preemptively and guess what? The rock-like formation under my shoulder-blade melted. I can turn my head normally to the sides.

I can now tell my potassium is getting too low from how tight I get.
 
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I started taking malic acid instead of plain old magnesium for my achy muscles and found it works better.

Muscle inflammation could come from a variety of problems from cytokine damage right down to the ryanodine receptor level - skeletal muscle contractions are very complicated, injury even worse.

The muscle lumps or "rocks" is mainly caused by severe muscle contractions that have locked (AKA tetanus, not from the bacteria), and swelled up trapping nerves etc. Heat packs, heat/muscle gels and deep massage (very painful, I know) is about the only way to release them.