Methylation issues - severely need help

renski

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Hello,

I was on a protocol of B1, R5P, Niacinamide, P5P, Trace minerals, B12, Lithium and started noticing some strange things:
- My cobalt dropped to 0 on my hair analysis (it was normal before I started any supplements)
- My homocysteine was high and dropped a little bit, but my cysteine/cystathionine/taurine all dropped, so I assume the homocysteine was going back to methionine
- My serum folate levels dropped (from what I've read serum folate is mostly methylated folate), I stopped all supplements many months ago and yet my folate levels haven't returned to their normal level, the colbalt is still low on hair analysis as well
- My oxidative stress markers are high, since my cysteine is low/taurine is high and i'm very deficient in functional B6 but find P5P makes my symptoms worse (I believe my CBS is heavily upregulated already and B6 makes this worse?
- My Vit C, E and D are all low but I wasn't taking these at the time
- Manganese dropped while on the protocol (assume this was the B2), but is manganese lower to compensate for oxidative stress?)
- My blood levels of P5P were high for a period while I was on this protocol, and when I had it tested I was off the P5P for a few weeks so it's as though the B2 was depleting/inactivating my B6, a few months after I had my P5P tested and was back to normal
- I'm low in magnesium but have issues tolerating many forms
- Molybdenum, lithium are low in blood tests
- SAMe, CoQ10 (and assume carnitine) are low

Can anyone make sense of whats going on? I tried to start methylation but seemed to have made things worse, assuming because I took the wrong nutrients but now I don't know how to get things moving in the right direction.

Thanks
 

Hip

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My cobalt dropped to 0 on my hair analysis (it was normal before I started any supplements)
Hair analysis is not considered a reliable method of testing for minerals. It's OK for testing heavy metals, but not minerals.
 

pamojja

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It's OK for testing heavy metals, but not minerals.
I posted a more differentiated expert opinion in this post:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/result-of-heavy-analysis.60948/#post-992490
  • “The "good" elements are Ca, Mg, Zn, Cu, Na, K, S, Mn, Fe, Pb, Se, P, and Cd.”
  • “Others that are decent (qualitative relevance) are Sb, As, Hg, Cr, Mo, Li, Ba, Ni, Sr, and Co.”
  • “Terrible assays (according to my tests) are: Al, Be, Bi, Pt, Th, Tl, U, Ag, Sn, Ti, V, B, I, Ge, Rb, and Zr.”
 

Hip

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I posted a more differentiated expert opinion in this post:
Interesting to read that opinion. From your post:
Low hair Zn correlates beautifully with low plasma levels. However, very elevated Zn in hair nearly always means Zn deficiency and low plasma Zn levels.
Elevated hair magnesium nearly always means magnesium depletion in the body, presumably because of increased Mg excretion. The same is true of hair Calcium and hair Zinc.
Findings of high Cu levels in hair are compromised by the many external sources of Cu which cannot be completely removed by washing.
That's the sort of thing that makes hair analysis unreliable, as there is no straightforward relationship between mineral levels in the hair and the actual level in the blood.
 

pamojja

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That's the sort of thing that makes hair analysis unreliable, as there is no straightforward relationship between mineral levels in the hair and the actual level in the blood.
Only that regular serum tests of for example electrolytes is just as unreliable, since they are tightly regulated and very seldom do reflect tissue levels. So not that much differences, in the end. That's why I get as much of different tests as possible: hair, serum, RBC and urine, for being able to benefit from the strength of each method.
 

pamojja

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Are you suggesting that the electrolyte tests which doctors rely on to make medical diagnoses are unreliable?
They are somewhat reliable in telling what's in serum. However, deficiencies in other tissues are thereby only found too late. Since electrolytes in serum are tightly controlled by homeostasis for preventing too high or low levels. Most important and never showing in serum are subclinical Magnesium deficiencies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/. In my case it not even showed a very severe, only remedied with Mg-IVs since November last year. Mg-RBC not available to me, but instead a whole blood Mg-test (a mix of serum and RBC) showed the severity in my case (29.9 mg/l; 34-36 normal range). Just last year got many test done and by accident calcium twice tested: 2.28 and 2.41 (2.15-2.55 mmol/L range) from the same blood draw. Hair in these casees more predictably shows deficiencies long before they are seen in serum.



:
 

taniaaust1

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Hair analysis is not considered a reliable method of testing for minerals. It's OK for testing heavy metals, but not minerals.
my specialist told me that hair testing is good for testing for deficiencies of things (in some things better then even blood testing) but unreliable for testing excess things due to ones hair can just absorb things from ones surroundings, shampoos or whatever.
 
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taniaaust1

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- My homocysteine was high and dropped a little bit, but my cysteine/cystathionine/taurine all dropped, so I assume the homocysteine was going back to methionine
- My serum folate levels dropped (from what I've read serum folate is mostly methylated folate), I stopped all supplements many months ago and yet my folate levels haven't returned to their normal level, the colbalt is still low on hair analysis as well
- My oxidative stress markers are high, since my cysteine is low/taurine is high and i'm very deficient in functional B6 but find P5P makes my symptoms worse (I believe my CBS is heavily upregulated already and B6 makes this worse?
- My Vit C, E and D are all low but I wasn't taking these at the time
- Manganese dropped while on the protocol (assume this was the B2), but is manganese lower to compensate for oxidative stress?)
- My blood levels of P5P were high for a period while I was on this protocol, and when I had it tested I was off the P5P for a few weeks so it's as though the B2 was depleting/inactivating my B6, a few months after I had my P5P tested and was back to normal
- I'm low in magnesium but have issues tolerating many forms
- Molybdenum, lithium are low in blood tests
- SAMe, CoQ10 (and assume carnitine) are low

Can anyone make sense of whats going on? I tried to start methylation but seemed to have made things worse, assuming because I took the wrong nutrients but now I don't know how to get things moving in the right direction.

Thanks
umm your test findings in many ways are like my own hair test results so maybe something I say will help you a bit.

I have low molybdenum (almost nil)...due to my own experiences with that and my specialist putting me onto a supplement called Molyzinc for this which then helped my brain (I was able to do maths in my head again something I hadnt been able to do for years, after only days on that supplement) . (the brand is Trace Nutrients).

I have no or near no lithium showing on my hair tests. Supplementing with lithium orotate though did nothing for me and strangely did not increase my levels. (I was going to experiment with higher amounts but never have got around to that).

I have extremely low D and maybe low C too (I say that as taking vitamin C in high dose has helped me at times if Im starting to develop a cold).

I have higher homocysteine levels too.. and my specialist though still in range told me this was probably indicating a MTHFR double mutation. So I had that tested and he was correct. Higher homocysteine is often a sign of that so if you have not been tested for that mutation get yourself tested for it (the test when it was done for me was on some kind of clotting panel blood test and of cause also shows up in my 24andME result results).

Your folate changes.. maybe that relates to you having the MTHFR. That mutation affects folate and peope are often recommended to take B12 to help this. Maybe your serum folate levels dropped due to your body being able to utilise it better with the supplement of the B12???? so could that actually be a good change and not a bad one?
 
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pamojja

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“Others that are decent (qualitative relevance) are Sb, As, Hg, Cr, Mo, Li, Ba, Ni, Sr, and Co.”
I have no or near no lithium showing on my hair tests. Supplementing with lithium orotate though did nothing for me and strangely did not increase my levels. (I was going to experiment with higher amounts but never have got around to that).
Guess Mo and Li in hair can't really be taken for quantitative assessment. Though had Li only tested twice in whole blood in a distance of 3 years: 0.5 + 0.6 mg/l (0.01-0.05 range). While lithium in hair 8 times yearly tested, in average the perfectly optimal mean. But in particular comparing it to the 2 whole blood tests, both showed even at the low end of range: 0.01 + 0.01 ug/g (0.01-0.06 range).
 

taniaaust1

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Guess Mo and Li in hair can't really be taken for quantitative assessment. Though had Li only tested twice in whole blood in a distance of 3 years: 0.5 + 0.6 mg/l (0.01-0.05 range). While lithium in hair 8 times yearly tested, in average the perfectly optimal mean. But in particular comparing it to the 2 whole blood tests, both showed even at the low end of range: 0.01 + 0.01 ug/g (0.01-0.06 range).
low end of range? still within normal levels though by the looks of it, so both blood and hair there showed up in normal range even if one was high normal and other was low normal.

I trust that my hair test was correct in picking up the molybdenum deficiency due to the good response I had then of supplementing it (a positive result of helping one of my ME/CFS symptoms is a big thing to me as my body doesnt hardly ever respond to supplements/meds for ME symptoms). Your post has got my curiousity though as it would be interesting to have a blood test done to and I think I may try to get that done at some point.