Metabolic profiling reveals anomalous energy metabolism and oxidative stress pathways

[JaimeS]

Looks really good @JaimeS! I'm also struck by how much this list looks like the basic building blocks for the business of the body: making cells, running respiration, neurological signaling...

I am not familiar with "Vitex agnus castus," though? Wikipedia tells me that it's thought to be an anaphrodisiac. I assume you chose it for some other reason.

Vasha

HAHAH, I always forget that the common name is 'Chaste Tree', and why.

Vitex is what fixed my issues with breathlessness / air hunger, the feeling that despite taking deep breaths, it wasn't 'working' to get me enough oxygen. It's a progesterone regulator, basically, but progesterone helps with respiratory issues and is neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory as well. I feel like it might make me a bit less jittery, too, but it's one of those things where I notice that more when I'm without it. It's an essential part of my ME toolikit.

-J

 

[ahmo]

There are dozens of interesting GAPS blogs. I haven't visited them for some time, as my diet is so limited. The first link below is an excellent beginners guide. Cheeseslave has videos, FB, but it seems her website is no longer around. There's a vid re making bone broth. I'll write up how I render fat, as it may be slightly different from the link. OK, I probably also make broth differently. I use a pressure cooker, while most instructions are for slow cooker. I was persuaded by the last link. later.

http://kitchenlib.com/basics/its-so-easy-gaps-intro-stage-1/

http://toomanyjarsinmykitchen.com/?s=render fat

http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/ excellent info on making sauerkraut

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCheeseslave/videos

http://www.foodrenegade.com/pressure-cooking-healthy/

 

[Gondwanaland]

Fatty, I'd say:
Vitamin A
Vitamin D
CoQ10
Omega-3s and 6s
Vitex agnus castus

Choline,
K2-MK4
Gamma E

My life right now revolves around being able to tolerate K2-MK4 and not turning it into K1... Gotta have the Gamma E on hand for any blood clots And staying away from D

 

[JaimeS]

Choline,
K2-MK4
Gamma E

My life right now revolves around being able to tolerate K2-MK4 and not turning it into K1... Gotta have the Gamma E on hand for any blood clots And staying away from D

You're staying away from Vitamin D? Por que?

-J

 

[adreno]

Anyone want to add...anything?

Lipoic acid.
Biotin.
Niacinamide.

 

[Gondwanaland]

You're staying away from Vitamin D? Por que?

-J

For 2 reasons:

• warfarin deranged my vitamin K metabolism
• having trouble with oxalates you don't want to retain extra calcium esp when bound to oxalates and especially if your liver doesn't comvert K1 to K2 properly.

 

[JaimeS]

For 2 reasons:

• warfarin deranged my vitamin K metabolism
• having trouble with oxalates you don't want to retain extra calcium esp when bound to oxalates and especially if your liver doesn't comvert K1 to K2 properly.

I definitely need it... my Ca2+ is low-normal, so no problems raising it a bit. Have you encountered others with this problem?

-J

 

[Gondwanaland]

Have you encountered others with this problem?

Judging by the number of threads about vitamin D intolerance, there is a huge subset of us feeling worse when supplementing it.

 

[adreno]

Well, a lot of these results are surprising to me. I would have expected to see high pyruvate and lactate, high glutamate and hypoglycemia.

I believe several studies have shown high lactate in ME. High pyruvate often goes with this. And hypoglycemia goes with hypocortisolism, another common finding in ME. Excitotoxicity also seems common.

This would indicate that glycolysis is okay in ME, but the citric acid cycle and electron transport chain is not. So this is all surprising to me.

 

[Sidereal]

Well, a lot of these results are surprising to me. I would have expected to see high pyruvate and lactate, high glutamate and hypoglycemia.

I believe several studies have shown high lactate in ME. High pyruvate often goes with this. And hypoglycemia goes with hypocortisolism, another common finding in ME. Excitotoxicity also seems common.

This would indicate that glycolysis is okay in ME, but the citric acid cycle and electron transport chain is not. So this is all surprising to me.

I've been thinking about this since it came out and I cannot make any sense of it.

 

[JaimeS]

This would indicate that glycolysis is okay in ME, but the citric acid cycle and electron transport chain is not.

Pyruvate is formed before entering the CAC, so this would imply a problem before the CAC begins. This would also reduce lactate.

I was surprised by that part, too, but keep in mind that a lot of what we see, re: high lactate is after exercise rather than at rest.

Certainly high blood sugar can create a roller-coaster of too-high sugar, exaggerated insulin response, and a brief period of hypoglycemia before the whole thing starts up again...

But I agree, some of this definitely is startling, and I want to repeat the study with 1000 ME patients!

-J

 

[halcyon]

I believe several studies have shown high lactate in ME.

High lactate or high lactic acid? They're different things right?

 

[JaimeS]

High lactate or high lactic acid? They're different things right?

Yes, you're right! Lactate is the ion, and lactic acid is it acidic form (H+ added). So lactate SHOULD be lower if lactic acid is high, all other things being equal, Y/N?

-J

 

[SOC]

Pyruvate (does it exist as a supplement?)

Well, I have a bottle of NOW Sports brand calcium pyruvate 1000 mg in my Tried-This-But-It-Didn't-Seem-To-Help box.

 

[SOC]

I was surprised by that part, too, but keep in mind that a lot of what we see, re: high lactate is after exercise rather than at rest.

Yes, I think we need to be very careful drawing conclusions here. Given that we know something is going very wrong in ME/CFS post-exertionally, we should not mix up data collected at rest with data collected post-exercise. "PWME have high/low (whatever)" should always include information about the conditions under which the data is taken. The human body is a highly dynamic system, so single data point measurements can be nearly meaningless unless we know the measurement is extremely stable. Metabolites, I imagine, are not at all static.

 

[adreno]

I don't think there is any meaningful difference between lactate and lactic acid. Shoot me if I'm wrong.

On my organic acids test I had high pyruvate, as well as dl-lactate. So I definitely won't be supplementing any pyruvate.

Instead, I'll be sure to take thiamine, biotin, lipoic acid and magnesium to get that pyruvate into the CAC.

 

[halcyon]

I don't think there is any meaningful difference between lactate and lactic acid. Shoot me if I'm wrong.

I honestly have no idea, I was hoping someone else would know.

 

[ahmo]

Bespoke diets based on gut microbes could help beat disease and obesity
Early trial showed use of computer algorithm to produce diet tailored to a person’s unique biological make-up had benefits for pre-diabetic subjects


Scientists have created bespoke diets using a computer algorithm that learns how individual bodies respond to different foods.

Researchers believe the tailored diets could help stem the rising tide of diabetes, heart disease and obesity, by personalising people’s daily meals and so helping them to adopt healthy eating habits.

The first results from the Personalised Nutrition Project, run by leading researchers in Israel, are due to be unveiled on Friday at the Human Microbiome conference in Heidelberg, Germany.

The project challenges the idea that general recommendations about healthy foods are suitable for everyone, and instead aims to produce optimised diets based on people’s unique biological make-up....

 

[nandixon]

I honestly have no idea, I was hoping someone else would know.

Speaking as a former chemist, in the context being used here it doesn't matter whether we refer to it as lactate or lactic acid. In solution, lactic acid and lactate are just equilibrium forms of the same parent molecule. And for our biochemistry purposes here, it's the parent molecule itself that's important.

(Lactate, an anion, is just the dissociated/deprotonated form of lactic acid. The relative amounts of each form, i.e., their equilibrium, depends on the pH of the solution/biological fluid they're contained in.)

 

[JaimeS]

I don't think there is any meaningful difference between lactate and lactic acid.

One is the conjugate base of the other, so they are different chemically. Biologically, it may be similar to comparing CO2 to bicarbonate - if your bicarbonate is low, your CO2 is typically also low, and they're often discussed interchangeably.

[Double-checks]. Yep, it doesn't really matter; lactic acid dissociates to lactate and H+ in blood.

...someone has already said this, now.

-J