ME is (if you keep overexerting) a continous downward cycle of hypoxia and reperfusion injury in nervous system and muscle tissue.
- Thread starter bread.
- Start date
heapsreal
iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
- Messages
- 10,009
- Location
- australia (brisbane)
I think there is alot of things going on affecting several systems. Plus i dont think everyone has the same systems or issues going on for them to make a concrete conclusion. Sometimes it seems we can plug a hole thats leaking only for another hole to sprout out and start leaking.
As for overexertion, the best advice seems to be to learn your boundaries and pace yourself. Many struggle with very basics of looking after themselves and some cant do that. Theres some that can work and just hold onto a job and outside of work is aggressive resting.
Nope, not obvious to me. For me, exertion didn't cause any problems, but muscle damage did, which implies that immune system activation is responsible. Also, muscle damaging activity had pretty much identical increase in my ME symptoms as viral infections did. Increasing tryptophan levels in my brain also had a similar effect, which implies cerebral kynurenine metabolism is involved (also affected by immune system activity).
Thus from my observations, hypoxia is a non-issue, and immune activation and cerebral kynurenine metabolism are obviously part of ME. I'll wait for someone else to claim that their ME has shown no correlation to immune system activation or cerebral kynurenine metabolism. It would be nice if we could figure out we all actually do have in common, or at least figure out what we don't all have in common (and can thus not waste research resources on).
Thus from my observations, hypoxia is a non-issue, and immune activation and cerebral kynurenine metabolism are obviously part of ME. I'll wait for someone else to claim that their ME has shown no correlation to immune system activation or cerebral kynurenine metabolism. It would be nice if we could figure out we all actually do have in common, or at least figure out what we don't all have in common (and can thus not waste research resources on).
sometexan84
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,195
While I definitely think that (in my case) my years of running and resistance training contributed to worsening of symptoms, or perpetuating my condition.... I don't feel that hypoxia induced tissue damage has much to do w/ my situation.
For me though, I think my exercise just increased the virulence of enterovirus infection.
@Wishful How are you measuring your muscle damage?
I have no idea what my kynurenine or tryptophan levels are.
What most of have in common is probably autonomic nervous system dysfunction.
For me though, I think my exercise just increased the virulence of enterovirus infection.
@Wishful How are you measuring your muscle damage?
I have no idea what my kynurenine or tryptophan levels are.
What most of have in common is probably autonomic nervous system dysfunction.
I wasn't measuring. It's just that the trigger for my PEM seemed to be usage of muscles in ways that I didn't normally use them, which as far as I know, results in microtears or other such damage, which triggers immune cells to clean up the damage and stimulate cell replacement. If I was used to 40 km bike rides, they wouldn't trigger PEM, yet climbing a ladder (which strains the muscles differently) just once, did trigger PEM. Likewise, shovelling soil with my normal movements for hours didn't trigger PEM, but shovelling a small amount of soil using different movements (stabbing horizontally) did. I assume that the main difference is the amount of cell damage. I suppose there are other possible explanations, such as signalling along different neural pathways, or different mitochondrial arrangement in the lesser-used muscles, but the immune system triggering seems the best fit.
I just looked up the symptoms associated with autonomic nervous system dysfunction, and I don't have any of them that I'm aware of. I suppose my double-vision could fit under their vague 'vision problems' category, but it could be from other causes too. So no, I can't put autonomic nervous system dysfunction as a symptom for ME that we all have in common either.
Going by the Canadian Concensus Criteria, we have fatigue (poorly defined) and PEM required for the diagnosis, with sleep dysfunction and pain (both kind of vaguely defined) required with some exceptions accepted. Also, it has to last for more than six months.
sometexan84
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,195
Well, I have unrefreshing sleep. And a few other symptoms which all kind of go in with unrefreshing sleep. Other symptoms I have correlate very very heavily w/ reduced parasympathetic activity and high heart rate (EDIT, whoops -- I meant "high heart rate, low heart rate variability") variability.
I think a lot of people on here also have unrefreshing sleep, and I've actually seen tons of people on here flat out talk about having autonomic dysfunction. Only one way to know for sure though! I get my ECG monitor this week so I can finally get definitive data for vagus nerve/autonomic nervous system function.
Last edited:
sometexan84
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,195
Actually, scratch that. There are 3 things I've seen as major commonalities...
in no particular order...
1) CNS and/or Autonomic dysfunction
2) Mitochondrial dysfunction
3) Gut and/or Gut-Brain Axis issues
I'd say immune system or immune system activation, but that seems a bit broad to me. But yea, that's def a common denominator.
in no particular order...
1) CNS and/or Autonomic dysfunction
2) Mitochondrial dysfunction
3) Gut and/or Gut-Brain Axis issues
I'd say immune system or immune system activation, but that seems a bit broad to me. But yea, that's def a common denominator.
morgan_25
Senior Member
- Messages
- 133
I use to be one of those that could “aggressively test” outside of work. I had no life. I would go to work, come home, sleep and repeat. Just recently I had to quit my job due to my illness becoming more severe. At age 25, it has been very hard for me to cope with.
heapsreal
iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
- Messages
- 10,009
- Location
- australia (brisbane)
Im sorry to hear that. Hopefully you can get on top of things with time. Fingers crossed for ya 🤞
morgan_25
Senior Member
- Messages
- 133
Thank you, seems like ME/CFS is getting a lot more attention due to covid. Hopefully we get some answers soon. 🤞🏻
I don't, as far as I can tell, have mitochondrial dysfunction (unless it's located only in a portion of my brain), or any gut or gut/brain axis issues or autonomic dysfunction. Cerebral issues, yes.
Unrefreshing sleep is too poorly defined for me. Yes, I wake up not feeling like I'm well-rested, but I don't think it's a sleep problem. I think that symptom is just the lack of the boost in energy we expect to feel after a good night's rest, which could be caused by some non-sleep-related neurological dysfunction.
sometexan84
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,195
Sounds like you know what you're doing! What're you still doing here guy?
No, I don't know what I'm doing. I managed to cure a few symptoms accidentally, but the other ME symptoms remain. I'm waiting for either researchers to find answers, or for more happy accidents. Happy accidents are good!
If your comment was about my lack of obvious mitochondrial dysfunction, my ME never developed any, so I couldn't treat/cure it. I still believe that my ME involves alterations to normal neural function, probably via glial cells and kynurenine metabolism.