ME/CFS researcher Derya Unutmaz's hypothesis on cause of ME/CFS....

[FMMM1]

Another leading ME/CFS researcher, Dr. Mady Hornig, seems to think the gut could be the root cause of ME/CFS also-

LINK

Jim

Thanks for this.

Regarding the reference to systems biology. Robert Phair (OMF/Integrative Bioinformatics, Inc) are currently researching the possibility that there is a metabolic trap and that this results in changes in the gut bacteria etc. (microbiome). The research is scheduled to be completed by the end of the summer (2018!).

Hornig & Lipkin published a large cytokine study study in 2015; Montoya and Davis published a similar study in 2017. As you point out Hornig & Lipkin also had an interest in microbiome; however, they never got the (NIH) funding to test the samples.

Hopefully Phair's project will turn something positive up by the end of the summer.

 

[ljimbo423]

Robert Phair (OMF/Integrative Bioinformatics, Inc) are currently researching the possibility that there is a metabolic trap and that this results in changes in the gut bacteria etc. (microbiome).

Do you have a reference for Phair saying he thinks the metabolic trap could be causing the changes in the gut bacteria? I have not heard this yet.

Jim

 

[Learner1]

I do not believe this is the case.

 

[mariovitali]

Do you have a reference for Phair saying he thinks the metabolic trap could be causing the changes in the gut bacteria? I have not heard this yet.

Jim

Yep, Same here

 

[Gondwanaland]

there is a metabolic trap and that this results in changes in the gut bacteria etc. (microbiome).

My personal experimentation with supplements seems to confirm this hypothesis.

 

[mariovitali]

@Gondwanaland

As a well-known "Liver Guy", i "hate to say" that the Gut, Gut Lining and Microbiome may be very important. It is confirmed algorithmically and also by some patients that i talk with. However we need to ask how this Gut Microbiome / Gut Lining integrity is disrupted. I believe that the Liver is the starting factor.

In any case, if Robert Phair's "metabolic trap hypothesis" also points to the gut, it will be very very interesting to know to say the least.

 

[FMMM1]

Do you have a reference for Phair saying he thinks the metabolic trap could be causing the changes in the gut bacteria? I have not heard this yet.

Jim

Chris Armstrong links the altered metabolism, i.e. using amino acids instead of glucose as your energy source, to altered microbiome (gut bacteria etc). Check out Chris's (December) 2016 webinar. The link Chris proposed was lower stomach acid production as a result of the switch from glucose to amino acids as an energy source.

Phair, to my knowledge has not explained his hypothesis publicly. Check out Janet Defoe's comments, on this site, that they do not wish people to experiment since it may be dangerous; hence they have not publicised details.

For clarity; I referred to altered metabolism results in altered microbiome i.e. based on Chris Armstrong's webinar/publications not Phair's.

Results regarding Phair's metabolic trap due to be out at the end of the summer.

 

[ljimbo423]

As a well-known "Liver Guy", i "hate to say" that the Gut, Gut Lining and Microbiome may be very important. It is confirmed algorithmically and also by some patients that i talk with. However we need to ask how this Gut Microbiome / Gut Lining integrity is disrupted.

Given the extremely prevalent over prescribing of antibiotics, the use of otc non steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and many other drugs that can damage the gut, like accutane etc, high levels of stress now in society, poor diets, pesticides etc.

All of which damage the gut. My question is why don't more people have ME/CFS?

My hunch is there are countless people that do have mild ME/CFS but are able to function enough to get by with tons of energy drinks and coffee, etc.

My son is one person. With his ADD medication and a lot of energy drinks he is able to work full time but he is not able to function anywhere near 100%, maybe 70-75.

I also have a friend like this, she is able to work and function but only at about 70% and 1-2 pots of coffee a day! Functional medicine doctors call them the "walking wounded".

Because they can still hold jobs but that's about all they can do and doctors can't find anything wrong with them.

Why wouldn't these things I mentioned above cause a enough of an increase in intestinal permeability (leaky gut), to cause an increase in immune system activation and the oxidative stress from that immune system activation, cause impaired mitochondria?

Mitochondria are very sensitive to oxidative stress.

I also think the dysfunctional mitochondria/metabolic trap are probably playing a role in making it more difficult to heal the gut because of the excess oxidative stress and inflammation they cause.

Just some thoughts I have.

Jim

 

[ljimbo423]

Chris Armstrong links the altered metabolism, i.e. using amino acids instead of glucose as your energy source, to altered microbiome (gut bacteria etc). Check out Chris's (December) 2016 webinar. The link Chris proposed was lower stomach acid production as a result of the switch from glucose to amino acids as an energy source.

I just listened to Chris Armstrong's video. What I heard him say was that chronic activation of the immune system, from increased bacterial translocation from the gut.

Over a long period of time, exhausts the bodies resources, which leads to a fatigue or starvation phenotype and mitochondrial dysfunction.

As I understand him, he is saying the bacterial translocation leads to the mitochondrial dysfunction and metabolic issues. This is what causes low stomach acid.

The low stomach acid further fuels the gut dysbiosis and mitochondrial dysfunction, because it lowers the PH in the gut. Creating a better environment for pathogenic bacteria to overgrow, worsening a leaky gut. This creates to some degree, a self sustaining gut dysfunction.

Interestingly I had a CDSA done several years ago that showed my gut PH was very low as Chris suggests.

I don't want to dismiss a metabolic trap or mitochondrial dysfunction as not playing a significant role though.

My feeling is it plays a big role in ME/CFS. I think if researchers find a way to allow the mitochondria to function normally, most if not all ME/CFS symptoms would disappear!

Jim

 

[JES]

I agree that the key issue for sure is whether the metabolic trap triggers the gut changes or whether gut changes trigger the metabolic trap. Personally I think the first one sounds more likely, but that's just my take on it without any expertise in this field. But I'm not sure if lower stomach acid production on its own is enough to explain all the changes seen in microbiome. Stomach acid naturally declines for everyone as they age, but people seem to cope with it fine. Same thing with regards to the huge PPI usage worldwide. PPI's basically block stomach acid not just slightly but almost completely, however, they don't seem to trigger any increase in ME/CFS based on the fact that PPI's are one of the most commonly used classes of drugs today.

Lots of other diseases like Parkinson's etc. also seem to have findings of altered gut microbiome, but again it's not clear whether it's a cause or effect. If altered microbiome was a cause, one would think that changing the microbiome with probiotics, prebiotics, diet etc. would result in some recoveries at least. The only prominent patient I know of that recovered fully from probiotics is Ken Lassesen and I read his blog with great interest. But even his evidence-based uBiome analysis method in which he recommends specific supplements/interventions based on the patient's uBiome results seems to be only of limited success.

Maybe it's simply that once the microbiome changes, it's very resistant to return back to the pre-illness state, so any treatments focused on altering microbiome alone may be of limited help.

 

[FMMM1]

Given the extremely prevalent over prescribing of antibiotics, the use of otc non steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and many other drugs that can damage the gut, like accutane etc, high levels of stress now in society, poor diets, pesticides etc.

All of which damage the gut. My question is why don't more people have ME/CFS?

My hunch is there are countless people that do have mild ME/CFS but are able to function enough to get by with tons of energy drinks and coffee, etc.

My son is one person. With his ADD medication and a lot of energy drinks he is able to work full time but he is not able to function anywhere near 100%, maybe 70-75.

I also have a friend like this, she is able to work and function but only at about 70% and 1-2 pots of coffee a day! Functional medicine doctors call them the "walking wounded".

Because they can still hold jobs but that's about all they can do and doctors can't find anything wrong with them.

Why wouldn't these things I mentioned above cause a enough of an increase in intestinal permeability (leaky gut), to cause an increase in immune system activation and the oxidative stress from that immune system activation, cause impaired mitochondria?

Mitochondria are very sensitive to oxidative stress.

I also think the dysfunctional mitochondria/metabolic trap are probably playing a role in making it more difficult to heal the gut because of the excess oxidative stress and inflammation they cause.

Just some thoughts I have.

Jim

I wonder what causes leaky.

Check out Chris Armstrong's response to questions (following his 2016 webinar) on this site.

Chris, in response to one question, points out that exercise increases translocation of bacteria/bacterial toxins i.e intestinal bacterial move across into the blood stream. Chris also points out that normally you can deal with this; however, a shift to more pathogenic species (owing to metabolic change) may mean that you cannot deal with the bacteria/bacterial toxins.

alex3619 pointed out that we currently do not understand type 2 diabetes; however, we can treat it. Alex's point (from memory) is that we may not understand ME/CFS but we could potentially learn to treat it.

 

[ljimbo423]

The only prominent patient I know of that recovered fully from probiotics is Ken Lassesen and I read his blog with great interest. But even his evidence-based uBiome analysis method in which he recommends specific supplements/interventions based on the patient's uBiome results seems to be only of limited success.

Maybe it's simply that once the microbiome changes, it's very resistant to return back to the pre-illness state, so any treatments focused on altering microbiome alone may be of limited help.

I think changing the microbiome is often very difficult in even healthy people. Having been following many people without CFS online trying to get rid of SIBO or dysbiosis.

It often takes them 2-3 years to get rid of it. So it seems the gut is very resistant to change once significant dysbiosis has set in.

This last time (his third!) Ken Lassesen recovered from CFS, he pulsed antibiotics and rotated several antibiotic herbs, with a low carb diet etc.

As I remember he said he was taking 3-4 "OO" sized capsules 3 times a day filled with different antibiotic herbs that he made himself. It took him 6 months to recover.

Had he not done both the daily herbs and pulsed the antibiotics, I think it would have taken him much, much longer to recover.

 

[FMMM1]

I just listened to Chris Armstrong's video. What I heard him say was that chronic activation of the immune system, from increased bacterial translocation from the gut.

Over a long period of time, exhausts the bodies resources, which leads to a fatigue or starvation phenotype and mitochondrial dysfunction.

As I understand him, he is saying the bacterial translocation leads to the mitochondrial dysfunction and metabolic issues. This is what causes low stomach acid.

The low stomach acid further fuels the gut dysbiosis and mitochondrial dysfunction, because it lowers the PH in the gut. Creating a better environment for pathogenic bacteria to overgrow, worsening a leaky gut. This creates to some degree, a self sustaining gut dysfunction.

Interestingly I had a CDSA done several years ago that showed my gut PH was very low as Chris suggests.

I don't want to dismiss a metabolic trap or mitochondrial dysfunction as not playing a significant role though.

My feeling is it plays a big role in ME/CFS. I think if researchers find a way to allow the mitochondria to function normally, most if not all ME/CFS symptoms would disappear!

Jim

That's Phair's hypothesis/theory i.e. if you cure the metabolic effect then the more pathogenic microbiome/sepsis--- will disappear.

By the way I'm fascinated by the stomach acid thing; how was it done?

One minor point, less stomach acid means higher pH (closer to 7) more stomach acid ---- pH (closer to 1).

 

[FMMM1]

I think changing the microbiome is often very difficult in even healthy people. Having been following many people without CFS online trying to get rid of SIBO or dysbiosis.

It often takes them 2-3 years to get rid of it. So it seems the gut is very resistant to change once significant dysbiosis has set in.

This last time (his third!) Ken Lassesen recovered from CFS, he pulsed antibiotics and rotated several antibiotic herbs, with a low carb diet etc.

As I remember he said he was taking 3-4 "OO" sized capsules 3 times a day filled with different antibiotic herbs that he made himself. It took him 6 months to recover.

Had he not done both the daily herbs and pulsed the antibiotics, I think it would have taken him much, much longer to recover.

If the metabolic effect is correct, and reversible, then possibly the microbiome may re-set very quickly. The gut will be more acidic i.e. favouring less pathogenic species. E.g. if a healthy person (normal gut acidity/pH) changes their diet, to include more prebiotics, then the proportion of "good" bacteria increase pretty quickly (days?); the reverse also applies.

 

[ljimbo423]

By the way I'm fascinated by the stomach acid thing; how was it done?

It was actually a measurement of my intestinal tract PH not my stomach. Mine was measured by a stool sample.

One minor point, less stomach acid means higher pH (closer to 7) more stomach acid ---- pH (closer to 1).

Yes. The PH in my gut (intestines) was 7.9. The reference range was 6.0-7.2. So the PH of my GI tract is a great breeding ground for pathogenic bacteria.

 

[mariovitali]

It was actually a measurement of my intestinal tract PH not my stomach. Mine was measured by a stool sample.



Yes. The PH in my gut (intestines) was 7.9. The reference range was 6.0-7.2. So the PH of my GI tract is a great breeding ground for pathogenic bacteria.

...Which are kept in control by Bile Acids ;-)

 

[ljimbo423]

...Which are kept in control by Bile Acids ;-)

In part, but there are many, many, many variables.

 

[Learner1]

There are indeed many variables and though the digestive system is important, it is not the only set of variables.

The only prominent patient I know of that recovered fully from probiotics is Ken Lassesen and I read his blog with great interest. But even his evidence-based uBiome analysis method in which he recommends specific supplements/interventions based on the patient's uBiome results seems to be only of limited success.

This last time (his third!) Ken Lassesen recovered from CFS, he pulsed antibiotics and rotated several antibiotic herbs, with a low carb diet etc

Ken has been a patient in the same naturopathic practice as I've gone to. The interventions he did were far more than just treating his gut. I called him on it, and he agreed, saying that most patients couldn't afford to do what he did, so he thought focusing on the gut is a low cost thing most patients can try.

He recommended I use glyphosate to restore my microbiome, so I'm a bit skeptical of his suggestions.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this forum, infections, immune system, mitochondria, oxidative and nitrosative stress, etc. can all play a role, and the researchers have been saying there are subsets of us patients, so until 25 years from now when they have this all figured out, our best bet might just be to look for our own set of weird variables and try to normalize them through treatment and hope for the best, using the clues the researchers are turning up as guideposts.

 

[junkcrap50]

He recommended I use glyphosate to restore my microbiome, so I'm a bit skeptical of his suggestions.

Err.... What?!?!?! That's retarded.

 

[Learner1]

It's because he just quotes from various studies depending on what bacteria pop up, without screening for whether they make sense or not (or conflict with each other).