ME/CFS Rarely Adrenal Fatigue - It's Far More Likely a "Cell Danger Response" by Mitochondria

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
3,448
Likes
4,538
Location
Ashland, Oregon
I just got done listening to a PODCAST by Ari Whitten, a man who claims to have spent years studying chronic fatigue (not CFS). Having grown up in a somewhat "alternative" household, he eventually set out to disprove the conventional medicine theory that adrenal fatigue does not exist. But he ran across a number of conflicting studies, the results of which he extrapolated into his own theories on ME/CFS.

He eventually came to the conclusion ME/CFS is rarely an adrenal problem, but more likely a mitochondrial reaction that becomes initiated by a perceived threat. He claims it goes into a "Cell Danger Response", which takes the mitochondria out of the energy mode, and into a defense mode, which he described as being akin to "hibernation". He goes on to say that this not a mistake by the body, but instead, an "intelligent response".

The bulk of what he says regarding his take on ME/CFS is at the 31:25 to 39:25 minute marks. So, if you have 8 minutes, and a coherent enough brain to listen to a short snippet in this talk, you may find it interesting.

 
Last edited:

Sundancer

Senior Member
Messages
569
Likes
1,403
Location
Holland
The bulk of what he says regarding his take on ME/CFS is at the 31:25 to 39:25 minute marks. So, if you have 8 minutes, and a coherent enough brain to listen to a short snippet in this talk, you may find it interesting.
thanks, I'm pretty new to all this and found this useful, the transcription ( I have a hard time to only hear english, but with subtitles I can follow it) starts at page 9
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
3,448
Likes
4,538
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Below is part of the abstract from the Podcast I linked to at the start of this thread... Full Abstract HERE.

Now, there's a number of new studies that have come out basically showing that mitochondrial dysfunction seems to be the big key to understanding chronic fatigue. And there's several key studies that have really shown this. There's work from Sarah Myhill who's an MD in the UK who pioneered a test called the ATP profile test, which was the first diagnostic test that objectively shows that people with chronic fatigue syndrome actually do have a very real abnormality, a very real dysfunction in their bodies.

Up until then, it's often regarded by, you know, conventional medicine as, you know, maybe hypochondria because they oftentimes couldn't detect anything wrong in blood test. So, this was the first time they actually found something, "Okay, we can see in people with chronic fatigue, they actually do have this very real serious dysfunction at the mitochondrial level." So, that was one big breakthrough.

There's also been some breakthrough pioneering research done by a researcher in San Diego named Robert Naviaux who runs a lab for mitochondrial medicine, and he's done just so many amazing studies. But a couple years ago, he did one called the Metabolic Features of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. And basically, this study did a comprehensive blood analysis of people with chronic fatigue syndrome. You know, so think of a standard blood test might have 30, 40, 50 different things that it measures. Well, this test that they use measures over 600 different metabolites in the blood.

So, it basically can create like a...this comprehensive like fingerprint for any different kind of condition that you test. ... And chronic fatigue syndrome, what they found was this huge number of abnormalities. They found close to 80% of the metabolites that they measured were off. And specifically, they were pretty much all shifted in a downward direction. They were all low. And what that means is, and basically what the research concluded, is that the state of the metabolism in people with chronic fatigue syndrome is basically almost like a hibernation-like state.

Essentially, all of the metabolic machinery, the mitochondria, the energy-producing parts of the cell, are being shut down. And instead of producing energy, the body is directing resources into kind of protection and into, you know, kind of this hibernation-like state. So, here's the other big piece that puts all of this together. There was research also conducted by this guy, Robert Naviaux, who runs his lab for mitochondrial medicine, and I believe it's some of the most important research that's been done on chronic disease in the last 50 years. I think this is literally some of the most important research that's been done in decades, and there's a number of other practitioners who agree with me on that.

And basically, he did a study called the cell danger response, and what they found is that mitochondria are not just these mindless energy generators that take in carbs and fats, and pump out energy, but they actually have this second role that almost no one knows about. And this second role is that mitochondria play this critical role in cellular defense. And what that means is that their job is to detect when there's any kind of danger present or threat present. And then, when they detect that, a danger or threat present, they're job is to turn off energy production and switch into cellular defense mode or the cell danger response, as what he calls it.

So, to make sense of all this, to put the pieces together, basically, people with chronic fatigue have this downregulation of their,all their metabolic machinery and it's because their mitochondria are detecting some kind of threat shifting out of energy-production mode into defense mode, and into this kind of hibernation-like state. And we experience, you know, kind of the subjective experience that we have of our bodies going into that hibernation-like state is that we experience chronic fatigue.

Now, if this all seems like kind of heady theory, abstract ideas, let me just ground this in something practical. Think of the last time that you got a cold or a flu. What was one of the big symptoms that you felt? It was fatigue, right? So, that experience of just the last time you got an infection and feeling that symptom of fatigue, that is the cell danger response in action. That's what you were feeling. You were feeling your mitochondria shifting out of energy mode and into defense mode, and the fatigue that you felt was a reaction to that.

So, that's essentially what chronic fatigue is. It is the symptom that we experience when our mitochondria are shifting out of energy mode towards defense mode. Now, the one last thing that I'll kind of make sense of here is that this is not a mistake. This is actually a very intelligent response by our body that is actually a protective response that is for our own benefit.
 
Last edited:
Messages
70
Likes
87
Location
East Coast, USA
My view of adrenal fatigue:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ses-me-cfs-not-germs.60072/page-2#post-980595

The mitochondia requires copper for completing the electron transport where our energy is produced. Copper is however required to be attached to ceruloplasmin to be usable at all by the body. It no longer will be attached well to ceruloplasmin once adrenals become too weak from stressors making you low or deficient in copper even though copper is still being taken in (can have normal or high serum copper but ceruloplasmin (usable) would then be low.

In the meanwhile, magnesium, zinc, and b vitamins are being depleted from stressors.

Magnesium which is depleted by the stressors to the body is essential to create 'energy' in the body by facilitating the production of ATP (adenosine triphosphate) in the mitochondria (the power stations) of the cell. ATP is the main source of energy in cells, and must be bound to a magnesium ion in order to be biologically active. What is called ATP is often actually Mg-ATP. The process of moving sodium and potassium ions across the cell membrane is mostly an active transport process involving the hydrolysis of ATP (ATP + Water) to provide the necessary energy. This energy is used to drive the sodium/potasssium pumps that sit inside the cell membrane pumping two potassium ions into the cell and three sodium ions out of the cell and also requires chloride, calcium, and copper.
Magnesium and zinc and B2 are needed for of the conversion of B6 to the active form, which is another problem with energy when B6 is lacking. Mag, Zinc, B6 are involved in the serotonin/melatonin pathway. Magnesium alone is involved in over 300 enzymes/conversions in the body. A few of the additional mag deficiency symptoms http://www.magnesiumeducation.com/mg-deficiencies. Zinc deficiency lowers the immune system and opens us to viruses and infections, including reactivation of a past virus.

It is the lack of resources that stops the ability to produce energy. And then metals like copper and mercury can accumulate from the lowering of zinc, and this further puts demand on the adrenals until it cant keep up. This is when ceruloplasmin (usable copper) drops and we go into adrenal exhaustion. Those with ApoE4 also cant detox metals as well so they build faster then other people. The effects are outlined throughout the threads.

http://www.mgwater.com/dur09.shtml (chloride)
The Na-K-Cl cotransport system moves sodium, potassium and chloride ions across the cell membrane. Movement is electroneutral: the number of chloride ions moved equals the sum of the number of sodium and potassium ions. In most cells, the ratio of ions moved is 1Na:1K:2Cl. This system is activated by cell shrinkage and is important in regulating cell volume and potassium content. K-Cl cotransport is the electroneutral movement of one K+ ion with one Cl- ion across the cell membrane K-Cl cotransport is usually measured as the flux of K+ which depends on the presence of Cl-. When zinc and mag fall, so will potassium which is required as well as leading to lowering of stomach acid which can create even more deficiencies.
 
Last edited:
Messages
7
Likes
25
I just got done listening to a PODCAST by Ari Whitten, a man who claims to have spent years studying chronic fatigue (not CFS). Having grown up in a somewhat "alternative" household, he eventually set out to disprove the conventional medicine theory that adrenal fatigue does not exist. But he ran across a number of conflicting studies, the results of which he extrapolated into his own theories on ME/CFS.

He eventually came to the conclusion ME/CFS is rarely an adrenal problem, but more likely a mitochondrial reaction that becomes initiated by a perceived threat. He claims it goes into a "Cell Danger Response", which takes the mitochondria out of the energy mode, and into a defense mode, which he described as being akin to "hibernation". He goes on to say that this not a mistake by the body, but instead, an "intelligent response".

The bulk of what he says regarding his take on ME/CFS is at the 31:25 to 39:25 minute marks. So, if you have 8 minutes, and a coherent enough brain to listen to a short snippet in this talk, you may find it interesting.

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...aviaux-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-core-problem/