Low Dose Antigens / Immunotherapy (LDA/LDI) Lyme
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Dufresne
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My understanding is Vincent's LDI is homeopathy produced from one's stool.
It's actually an intriguing idea and I'm surprised nobody put into use sooner. All those toxins from mold, Lyme and co, etc, that make their exit that way are those I know to be causing most of my inflammation. If I could mitigate the inflammation it would most definitely have a profound effect.
Apparently he starts with very large dilutions so as not to provoke a flare against the bugs and toxins themselves, but to desensitize to the toxins. I admit it's funny how this works: you can decrease immune activity to a toxin, while increasing immunity of a pathogen. But this is how homeopathy seems to work with such things. I can only assume the body's intelligence has a way of sorting it out.
I've never had any die off or inflammation from homeopathic nosodes more dilute than 200X. And he starts with 20C -not even in the same galaxy. As I believe MCAS may result from inflammation and toxicity, it might be exactly what someone suffering this could use. Then again it could go the other way. The only way to determine if there's a greater chance it'll be helpful, rather than harmful, is for people with such sensitivities to give it a go. Hopefully they're compiling the data on this.
It's a scary experiment to conduct on oneself, for sure. I'm still dealing with an exacerbation of inflammation from a homeopathic I took three weeks ago; my worst homeopathic reaction to date. I'm actually thinking this desensitization might be a way out of it.
Could someone do this at home with a basic knowledge of how to produce homeopathic remedies? After all it's just the matter of preparing a 20C dilution of one's stool. That's easy enough. But doesn't he use some sort of agent along with the remedy to desensitize the system?
It's actually an intriguing idea and I'm surprised nobody put into use sooner. All those toxins from mold, Lyme and co, etc, that make their exit that way are those I know to be causing most of my inflammation. If I could mitigate the inflammation it would most definitely have a profound effect.
Apparently he starts with very large dilutions so as not to provoke a flare against the bugs and toxins themselves, but to desensitize to the toxins. I admit it's funny how this works: you can decrease immune activity to a toxin, while increasing immunity of a pathogen. But this is how homeopathy seems to work with such things. I can only assume the body's intelligence has a way of sorting it out.
I've never had any die off or inflammation from homeopathic nosodes more dilute than 200X. And he starts with 20C -not even in the same galaxy. As I believe MCAS may result from inflammation and toxicity, it might be exactly what someone suffering this could use. Then again it could go the other way. The only way to determine if there's a greater chance it'll be helpful, rather than harmful, is for people with such sensitivities to give it a go. Hopefully they're compiling the data on this.
It's a scary experiment to conduct on oneself, for sure. I'm still dealing with an exacerbation of inflammation from a homeopathic I took three weeks ago; my worst homeopathic reaction to date. I'm actually thinking this desensitization might be a way out of it.
Could someone do this at home with a basic knowledge of how to produce homeopathic remedies? After all it's just the matter of preparing a 20C dilution of one's stool. That's easy enough. But doesn't he use some sort of agent along with the remedy to desensitize the system?
Sushi
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This is in rare occasions and from the LDI for Lyme group I am following, this is different from homeopathy.
I don't believe this is the same therapy.
Quite a few with MCAS are reporting good results.
I don't believe so as he uses different sources for his mixtures and you would need access to that source. My understanding is that you have to be a medical practitioner to access this source.
He uses an enzyme I believe (I'd have to look it up which I can't do right now), but it is more to potentiate than to desensitize the system.
Dufresne
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@Sushi
My understanding is he starts with a 20C dilution and works his way to an effective dose. In which case it's all homeopathy, whether it's using frequencies of bugs, fungus, or one's stool. And if so he probably shouldn't be using the word "antigen". Though I might have misunderstood some of what he does. There's nothing new except maybe the agent he's using, and I really wonder how necessary this is. There may well be something to it, but simple homeopathy is supposed to work in the same way. I admit though, it never occurred to create an auto-nosodeme from stool.
My understanding is he starts with a 20C dilution and works his way to an effective dose. In which case it's all homeopathy, whether it's using frequencies of bugs, fungus, or one's stool. And if so he probably shouldn't be using the word "antigen". Though I might have misunderstood some of what he does. There's nothing new except maybe the agent he's using, and I really wonder how necessary this is. There may well be something to it, but simple homeopathy is supposed to work in the same way. I admit though, it never occurred to create an auto-nosodeme from stool.
Sushi
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He usually starts with about 15 C, but it is calibrated differently from homeopathy. The lower numbers are more potent. He isn't using frequencies that I know of. If you listen to his radio interview with Dr. Neil Nathan, you'll get better explanations than I can give.
Dufresne
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I did listen to it, but my understanding is somewhat different. 15C is a common homeopathic dilution, I don't know how it could be calibrated any other way. As there's no trace of the original substance in such a dilution, it probably shouldn't be called an antigen. That's my thinking anyway. This is why homeopaths will sometimes refer to nosodes as frequencies. After all, at that dilution, as far as science is concerned, it's nothing but water.
Sushi
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Perhaps some of this will be clarified in the upcoming conference at the beginning of October.
Here is a summary and intro to LDI
____
New treatment: Low Dose Immunotherapy
Low Dose Immunotherapy (LDI) is a new treatment now being used to treat anything that relates to your body inappropriately over-reacting to things, such as certain viruses and bacteria and environmental toxins. So the treatment can treat Lyme & co-infections, ME/CFS, mold, food allergies, Rheum. Arthritis, chemical sensitivities, Autism and more. It is not about killing pathogens, but rather working with the immune system so that it doesn't create a massive inflammatory response to them. If this sounds familiar, it is because LDI is an offshoot of a longer-established approach called Low Dose Allergy Treatment (LDA).
LDI is getting some good results. For example, from what I am hearing re: Lyme patients, about 1/3 of Lyme patients (clinically very close to ME/CFS) are getting better immediately after treatment is started (!!??), 1/3 are getting slowly better and 1/3 are not getting better. The theory is that the last 1/3rd are still trying to find the right dose that will give them some results. A bunch of time is spent trying to find the right dose for each individual person.
SUMMARY OF THE TREATMENT
"LDI is a form of immune desensitization that works by restoring TOLERANCE for various things. This can be done for literally thousands of antigens at once. Tolerance is actively learned by the immune system. In LDI, this effect is accomplished by combining an enzyme called “beta glucuronidase” with whatever antigens your provider feels are relevant to your particular medical issues." (More at: http://www.mat-suim.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/site.content/mode/dtl/type/29453/post/68218.cfm)
DR. TY VINCENT
Dr. Vincent is the inventor of "LDI" -- and LDI is Vincent's particular twist on the longer-established approach called Low Dose Allergy Treatment (LDA). Dr. Vincent's newer LDI approach is administered via sublingual or injectable treatments. You can administer from home, at least with the sublingual version, as they send the treatments to you via snailmail. A skype appt with Dr. Ty Vincent in Alaska is $500/hr (for the first appt). (Maybe they take insurance with in-person appts?) After the first appt with Dr. Vincent, I think you check in weekly with his nurse to let them know how you are doing with the treatments, and I don't think there is a charge for that. If you want to see Vincent again, in 6-12 months or before, it is $125 for 15 min. With Dr. Ty Vincent's clinic, the treatments range from $75-100, and you only do them once every 7 wks, once you find the right dose. So I am assuming it would cost about $1500-2000 total to do this protocol, but that is a guess.
VINCENT BIO
http://www.mat-suim.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/site.physicians/action/dtl/phys/99801759.cfm
OTHERS TRAINED IN LDI
Dr. Vincent has trained a number of doctors in his LDI approach (see: LDI Provider Directory http://www.mat-suim.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/site.content/type/29449.cfm). They are scattered around the US, Canada and a few around the globe. They are likely cheaper to see than Dr. Vincent. For example, a recommended Canadian doctor (http://kineticpatterns.ca/lda-treatment-for-lyme-disease/), via skype, is $300/hr. So even if you are in the UK, you can see her. Some may prefer to to see (via skype) Dr. Vincent himself, as he has the most experience with this new approach he invented. But unfortunately I hear he is not taking int'l patients via skype for some reason. Maybe I am wrong.
FIVE MIN VIDEO OF DR. VINCENT TALKING ABOUT LDI
(You can also pay to see the full 2 hr webinar if you want)
https://progressivemedicaleducation.site-ym.com/store/ViewProduct.aspx?id=5139864
LONGER AUDIO INTERVIEW W/ DR. VINCENT
Interview is found on Dr. Neil Nathan's Voice of America "radio" program
http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/87271/low-dose-immunotherapy-a-new-healing-tool
LDI CONFERENCE
There is an LDI conference coming up in early October 2015: http://aaemconference.com/speakers/vincent.php
I heard you can poke around on that site to learn more, but have yet to do it.
LDI FACEBOOK GROUP
There is a Facebook group called "LDI for Lyme." It is a closed patient group. That means you must ask to join before you will be let in. Once in, the most important thing is to go to the FILES section of that facebook page and read the interviews with Dr. Ty Vincent. He talks about his success with all sorts of issues, from Lyme to CFS to food allergies to Rheum. Arthritis. I recommend reading the interviews.
____
New treatment: Low Dose Immunotherapy
Low Dose Immunotherapy (LDI) is a new treatment now being used to treat anything that relates to your body inappropriately over-reacting to things, such as certain viruses and bacteria and environmental toxins. So the treatment can treat Lyme & co-infections, ME/CFS, mold, food allergies, Rheum. Arthritis, chemical sensitivities, Autism and more. It is not about killing pathogens, but rather working with the immune system so that it doesn't create a massive inflammatory response to them. If this sounds familiar, it is because LDI is an offshoot of a longer-established approach called Low Dose Allergy Treatment (LDA).
LDI is getting some good results. For example, from what I am hearing re: Lyme patients, about 1/3 of Lyme patients (clinically very close to ME/CFS) are getting better immediately after treatment is started (!!??), 1/3 are getting slowly better and 1/3 are not getting better. The theory is that the last 1/3rd are still trying to find the right dose that will give them some results. A bunch of time is spent trying to find the right dose for each individual person.
SUMMARY OF THE TREATMENT
"LDI is a form of immune desensitization that works by restoring TOLERANCE for various things. This can be done for literally thousands of antigens at once. Tolerance is actively learned by the immune system. In LDI, this effect is accomplished by combining an enzyme called “beta glucuronidase” with whatever antigens your provider feels are relevant to your particular medical issues." (More at: http://www.mat-suim.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/site.content/mode/dtl/type/29453/post/68218.cfm)
DR. TY VINCENT
Dr. Vincent is the inventor of "LDI" -- and LDI is Vincent's particular twist on the longer-established approach called Low Dose Allergy Treatment (LDA). Dr. Vincent's newer LDI approach is administered via sublingual or injectable treatments. You can administer from home, at least with the sublingual version, as they send the treatments to you via snailmail. A skype appt with Dr. Ty Vincent in Alaska is $500/hr (for the first appt). (Maybe they take insurance with in-person appts?) After the first appt with Dr. Vincent, I think you check in weekly with his nurse to let them know how you are doing with the treatments, and I don't think there is a charge for that. If you want to see Vincent again, in 6-12 months or before, it is $125 for 15 min. With Dr. Ty Vincent's clinic, the treatments range from $75-100, and you only do them once every 7 wks, once you find the right dose. So I am assuming it would cost about $1500-2000 total to do this protocol, but that is a guess.
VINCENT BIO
http://www.mat-suim.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/site.physicians/action/dtl/phys/99801759.cfm
OTHERS TRAINED IN LDI
Dr. Vincent has trained a number of doctors in his LDI approach (see: LDI Provider Directory http://www.mat-suim.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/site.content/type/29449.cfm). They are scattered around the US, Canada and a few around the globe. They are likely cheaper to see than Dr. Vincent. For example, a recommended Canadian doctor (http://kineticpatterns.ca/lda-treatment-for-lyme-disease/), via skype, is $300/hr. So even if you are in the UK, you can see her. Some may prefer to to see (via skype) Dr. Vincent himself, as he has the most experience with this new approach he invented. But unfortunately I hear he is not taking int'l patients via skype for some reason. Maybe I am wrong.
FIVE MIN VIDEO OF DR. VINCENT TALKING ABOUT LDI
(You can also pay to see the full 2 hr webinar if you want)
https://progressivemedicaleducation.site-ym.com/store/ViewProduct.aspx?id=5139864
LONGER AUDIO INTERVIEW W/ DR. VINCENT
Interview is found on Dr. Neil Nathan's Voice of America "radio" program
http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/87271/low-dose-immunotherapy-a-new-healing-tool
LDI CONFERENCE
There is an LDI conference coming up in early October 2015: http://aaemconference.com/speakers/vincent.php
I heard you can poke around on that site to learn more, but have yet to do it.
LDI FACEBOOK GROUP
There is a Facebook group called "LDI for Lyme." It is a closed patient group. That means you must ask to join before you will be let in. Once in, the most important thing is to go to the FILES section of that facebook page and read the interviews with Dr. Ty Vincent. He talks about his success with all sorts of issues, from Lyme to CFS to food allergies to Rheum. Arthritis. I recommend reading the interviews.
GcMAF Australia
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I think I doctor in australia
is Dr Mark Westaway in Brisbane area.
also Macfadden in Sydney
is Dr Mark Westaway in Brisbane area.
also Macfadden in Sydney
I am researching LDA for myself and my partner. From what I've read I've been having a hard time determining whether this seems like a credible, scientific treatment or it's complete hogwash. But reading on this thread that it has anything in common with homeopathy is a huge red flag.
Anyone else out there who is scientifically minded who has also researched this area? Love to get some thoughts from that perspective.
Anyone else out there who is scientifically minded who has also researched this area? Love to get some thoughts from that perspective.
Sushi
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Please contact me in a chat or a conversation--there was a conference on this the past weekend.
sillysocks84
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@Sushi I think it sounds really interesting. I know how these allergies keep us from life and I would almost try anything to reverse this. Please keep us up to date on how it goes.
Sushi
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Hi sillysocks. This is not really a treatment for allergies but for the symptoms that plague most ME/CFS patients as well as the symptoms that make life hell for patients with other chronic illnesses.
sillysocks84
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So it's not for mast cell issues. Mine are one of the worse symptoms for me
Sushi
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Mast cell issues have been successfully treated with it from what I have read in forums.
sillysocks84
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@Sushi thank you, I have research to do. Thank you for the info!
kungfudao
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Time to get out the blender and make a smoothy , Ha Ha.All joking aside my LLMD just left me a Message about Low Dose Antigen Therapy, He just came back from training, He's very hopefull. When I typed it into the computer this is what came up???
I don't know if this is the same thing, But interestingly I have heard other doctors joking about eating poop???
Sushi
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He has only used poop a bit over 100 times. He usually makes remedies "more traditional" ways.
Yes, there was a training in this last weekend. A friend went and he was also hopeful.
kungfudao
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Thanks for the info... Whatever it is my Doctor is very hopeful about this treatment. I've been watching some videos on u tube and its very interesting, For some time I did auto urine I,M.plus ozone which some people might mok, but urine has antigens of every thing wrong with you. its very similar to blood plasma.
I just wonder how this differs.besides extreme low dose. I need to learn more about this.