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Looking for Benzodiazepine Damaged pwMEs (Klonopin, etc.)

2Cor.12:19

Senior Member
Messages
280
@2Cor.12:19 ”...I hope to know once I've completely withdrawn from Xanax and heal - which may take a couple of years. I will post here if any of these improve or disappear after discontinuing... .

My own experience and like that of other PWCs here, witnessed from thousands of postings is that various and unusual symptoms not unlike yours come and go, or linger despite all sorts of uncertai treatments. Then, after running down a plethora of medical tests over the years in many specialties we end up with results ‘normal.’ Very frustrating.

Medicine doesn’t pursue drugs for the purpose of doing harm, though they often get a bad rap for reasons like being mis-prescribEd, extended or unintended uses, or due to side effects or abuse. Even food has side effects and many times unintended consequences...weight gain, tooth decay, etc. What I’m getting at is that if medications can ultimately provide some relief or respite from an invisible illness why give them up just to be in an arbitrarily desired state of being ‘pill free?’ For example, in considering the possible pros agains the likely cons of drug therapy, cancer patients put up with horrendous side effects, hair or teeth loss, and isolation hoping they’ll recover some of their pre illness healthy state and abilities... .

So, while the Ashton Manual is helpful in withdrawal from benzos and the like, it also starts with the question of
a patient’s decision if quitting is really their best option. Sometimes, these and other drugs are useful to help PWCs relieve some of their otherwise misery caused by symptoms not likely to go away. For example my doctor says I’m ‘addicted’ to Ambien or other sleeping meds; further, he says ‘so what, it they help you sleep when otherwise you can’t... .’ We’re talking judicious considerations, here, otherwise less consequential than the progressive affects of MECFS.


I hope you do get some satisfaction in knowing the cause(s) of your symptoms. IMO, from a very long time dealing with CFS I think you’ll come to the conclusion that they remain a manifestations of this illness.

@Stretched I totally understand what you're saying. In my case, I had ME/CFS 13 years prior to starting Xanax - so I've had ME for 33 years and the past 20 have been on Xanax. I never saw a problem being on it for the rest of my life. But my health has declined over the past 10 years and I've acquired conditions I never had before. In fact, prior to starting Xanax my ME/CFS had improved to where I was about 75% back to normal (after being mostly bedbound for several years)

In recent years my general anxiety and muscle tension has gotten worse in addition to serious neurological problems. After learning how many of my symptoms can also be caused by benzos, I've decided to it's time to get off. I have no problem with taking meds but if one of them proves to be causing more harm than good, than I'm ditching it.
 

Stretched

Senior Member
Messages
705
Location
U.S. Atlanta
@Stretched
In recent years my general anxiety and muscle tension has gotten worse in addition to serious neurological problems. After learning how many of my symptoms can also be caused by benzos, I've decided to it's time to get off. I have no problem with taking meds but if one of them proves to be causing more harm than good, than I'm ditching it.

‘Makes sense to me and for your sake I hope it’s the Xanax and some/all your symptoms abate. :thumbsup:

Interesting, by mid 2018, I too had neurological problems - peripheral neuropathy in particular flared, i.e. severe pain in my feet. I had to get on narcotics or get in a wheel chair.

I’m lucky to have a neurologist who believes as I do - that MECFS is neurological oriented. We continue to watch the research and look for ’footprints’... .
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
About five years ago, all I knew was I felt absolutely horrible sober, and especially Xanax made me feel “normal.”
Understandable, since alcohol makes use of the same GABAa receptors that benzos use. So you were going thru alcohol withdrawal, and the benzos attached to the same receptors that you were having withdrawal issues with and brought you much-needed and very welcome relief.
Medicine doesn’t pursue drugs for the purpose of doing harm, though they often get a bad rap for reasons like being mis-prescribEd, extended or unintended uses, or due to side effects or abuse
'Medicine' doesn;t create new drugs. BigPharma does. And they do that based on what they think will sell, which they have very large and very well-funded R&D departments to help them determine, based to some extent on what Google searches are trending, what cyber-space magazine and newspaper articles are writing about. They often take a drug currently in production, and even better, about to go off patent protection and enter the low-cost generic world, and they tweak it a bit, enough to get a new patent, and then it goes to the 'what do we name this crap' division, that comes up with drug names like Flonase, Humira, Skyrizi, Otezla, Akleif, Trokafta, etc.


The off-label uses are promoted to Drs, not in well-considered and well-done research papers, but by that army of extremely attractive young women in tight, short-skirted black suits who travel from medical office building to medical office building dragging those large black cases behind them. In conspiratorial tones, they inform Drs that, although there's no research on this, PharmaABC has determined that this drug for seizures hs shown a great deal of success dealing with anxiety and depression, and the Dr might want to try it on those of his patients whose symptoms seem to be resistant to other, more traditional prescriptions. They then provide the Dr with a very large amount of trial samples, anywhere from 1 to 3 months worth, to give out to his patients.

So no, 'medicine' doesn;t create drugs for the purpose of doing harm, they create drugs for the purpose of making as much money as possible. The rest is just collateral damage.
 
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Stretched

Senior Member
Messages
705
Location
U.S. Atlanta
So no, 'medicine' doesn;t create drugs for the purpose of doing harm, they create drugs for the purpose of making as much money as possible.

Other than that, how about a contribution to the Big Pharma holiday party fund? :headslap:

... So, you would have us believe that the majority of MD PhD’s, research pharmacists and biologists, individuals who actually design pharmaceuticals align their careers after multiple years of post graduate study for frivolous objectives? Pharma has to sell rxs to exist, sic capitalism. You can get drugs a lot cheaper in communist countries... they MAY work!
 
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SlamDancin

Senior Member
Messages
551
@2Cor.12:19 ”...I hope to know once I've completely withdrawn from Xanax and heal - which may take a couple of years. I will post here if any of these improve or disappear after discontinuing... .

Medicine doesn’t pursue drugs for the purpose of doing harm, though they often get a bad rap for reasons like being mis-prescribEd, extended or unintended uses, or due to side effects or abuse. Even food has side effects and many times unintended consequences...weight gain, tooth decay, etc. What I’m getting at is that if medications can ultimately provide some relief or respite from an invisible illness why give them up just to be in an arbitrarily desired state of being ‘pill free?’ For example, in considering the possible pros agains the likely cons of drug therapy, cancer patients put up with horrendous side effects, hair or teeth loss, and isolation hoping they’ll recover some of their pre illness healthy state and abilities... .

So, while the Ashton Manual is helpful in withdrawal from benzos and the like, it also starts with the question of
a patient’s decision if quitting is really their best option. Sometimes, these and other drugs are useful to help PWCs relieve some of their otherwise misery caused by symptoms not likely to go away. We’re talking judicious considerations, here, otherwise less consequential than the progressive affects of MECFS.


I hope you do get some satisfaction in knowing the cause(s) of your symptoms. IMO, from a very long time dealing with CFS I think you’ll come to the conclusion that they remain a manifestations of this illness.
Ehhh Benzos are starting to prove to be especially heinous. Their withdrawal may be one reason for triggering this disease in a subset.
 

SlamDancin

Senior Member
Messages
551
Other than that, how about a contribution to the Big Pharma holiday party fund? :headslap:

... So, you would have us believe that the majority of MD PhD’s, research pharmacists and biologists, individuals who actually design pharmaceuticals align their careers after multiple years of post graduate study for frivolous objectives? Pharma has to sell rxs to exist, sic capitalism. You can get drugs a lot cheaper in communist countries... they MAY work!
whoever invented Xanax caused a lot more harm than suffering saved my friend
 
Messages
34
@Stretched I totally understand what you're saying. In my case, I had ME/CFS 13 years prior to starting Xanax - so I've had ME for 33 years and the past 20 have been on Xanax. I never saw a problem being on it for the rest of my life. But my health has declined over the past 10 years and I've acquired conditions I never had before. In fact, prior to starting Xanax my ME/CFS had improved to where I was about 75% back to normal (after being mostly bedbound for several years)

In recent years my general anxiety and muscle tension has gotten worse in addition to serious neurological problems. After learning how many of my symptoms can also be caused by benzos, I've decided to it's time to get off. I have no problem with taking meds but if one of them proves to be causing more harm than good, than I'm ditching it.

2Cor, I hope your taper goes smoothly.
I am in a similar situation, but with Klonopin. I had the same mindset that I would simply be on it for life.
My muscle spasms, headaches, pain and fatigue have all increased after 7 years on .38mg of K, (dosed once a day.) My hair is thin, nails brittle, and muscles wasting after I had to switch brands due to discontinuation of the one I had been taking. I’ve taken other meds, and suffered an injury from Botox, so it’s hard to know what what. But when I increase my K, things get better for a short time only. Trying to taper, even in small amounts, has been extremely difficult, to put it mildly. I really wish I had never taken it.
 

2Cor.12:19

Senior Member
Messages
280
2Cor, I hope your taper goes smoothly.
I am in a similar situation, but with Klonopin. I had the same mindset that I would simply be on it for life.
My muscle spasms, headaches, pain and fatigue have all increased after 7 years on .38mg of K, (dosed once a day.) My hair is thin, nails brittle, and muscles wasting after I had to switch brands due to discontinuation of the one I had been taking. I’ve taken other meds, and suffered an injury from Botox, so it’s hard to know what what. But when I increase my K, things get better for a short time only. Trying to taper, even in small amounts, has been extremely difficult, to put it mildly. I really wish I had never taken it.

Hi @Capecodder - I'm just now seeing this. Thank you. With ME/CFS it's nearly impossible to know which of our ailments are being caused by it or something else. I guess all we can do is see how it goes after we've been off for awhile. Do you have a plan of action for tapering? Going to fast and with too big of cuts seems to be the biggest problem, from what I've read on Benzo Buddies and elsewhere. Also, trying to go off more than one drug at a time causes problems.

I sure hope you (we) can find a way out of this without too much long-term suffering.
Best wishes!
 
Messages
41
@hikinglo - Great questions! I didn't see this thread when I posted mine here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...al-success-stories-please.78239/#post-2240943



Yes! I'm currently very slowly tapering off Xanax after 20 years on 4 x daily - total daily dose .75 mg. I'm using a direct dry-taper 10/2 method. 10% of total daily dose decreased every two weeks or more, depending on comfort level.

I had moderate-severe ME/CFS for 13 years prior to being put on Xanax for severe panic attacks.

In the past 10-15 years I've developed many new conditions I assumed were part of the "aging with ME/CFS" package. I've had extensive testing for all of these with no known cause determined. I don't know how many of them can be attributed to ME or to benzos - or maybe a combination of both, but I hope to know once I've completely withdrawn from Xanax and heal - which may take a couple of years. I will post here if any of these improve or disappear after discontinuing. These include:

  1. Idiopathic Polyneuropathy (severe peripheral nerve damage - motor, sensory, & autonomic)
  2. Sleep apnea (although I believe I already had this)
  3. Chronic tinnitus
  4. Sinus inflammation & ear pain (one side only)
  5. Chronic constipation
  6. Chronic low-grade generalized anxiety & muscle tension
  7. Vertigo (occasionally)
  8. Blurred vision (comes and goes daily for no reason)
  9. Extreme dry mouth & eyes
  10. Dry skin
  11. Hair thinning
  12. Mild pulmonary hypertension
  13. Low grade depression and unfounded insecurity over friendships/relationships
  14. Startle easily
  15. Memory and cognitive issues - need help following a TV show and can't read a whole book. Word finding is worse than ever.
  16. Fatigue that feels different than ME/CFS fatigue - hard to explain.
I have the same issue with Benzo Buddies which is why I started a thread here to here ME/CFS benzo withdrawal success stories. It's impossible to know which symptoms are ME and which are benzo related.

Being on Xanax, a short acting potent benzo, I was greatly helped by Stuart Shipkos book "Xanax Withdrawal" available on Amazon Kindle.

Apologies... I didn't see this before, 2Cor. I wasn't receiving notices for this thread after late Oct, and thought it fizzled out. (Probably my rural ISP 'updating' and dropping notices as spam, which is typical around here.)

Anyway... Heck, then you know what I'm talking about re insidious symptoms I thought were just natural progression of ME. Several on your list were intense during w/d for me, that I didn't have until started tapering. Several I still have, but are s-l-o-w-l-y diminishing.

But yes, due to the faster taper, I knew exactly what symptoms were new, and still rightly suspect what symptoms developed due to being on the drug (especially deteriorating cognition, word finding, etc., and 'fatigue' of a different flavor than ME). Physical and cognitive symptoms during fast (4 months) taper and after were INTENSE, 24/7. For example, I had no problems while on K or before with startle response, but it was INTENSE for many months - my cat jumping off the bed felt like a meteor crashing through my roof in slow motion, night after night. Frighteningly WAY more noise intolerant than during acute/early ME.

I could comment on just about every number on your list, plus add a dozen more, as it has related to benzo w/d (or possibly not in a few cases?), but don't have the energy, and won't burden with a long meandering post. I will add that I never had a problem with depression at any time in my life, but dysphoria came on pretty strong in my second year post w/d. I recognized it as part of the healing process, and it is slowly abating in a comes-and-goes fashion.

I don't want to get into my own additional symptoms because 'intrusive thoughts' can be an issue, and I don't want to give you anymore to think about:)
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
.)

The severity, intensity and relentlessness of a rapid withdrawal from a benzo doesn't compare to anything you've ever experienced. (If you know anyone who has had a 'bad trip' on acid or THC, picture that sort of intensity for months on end, day, night, unforgiving.) Even a slow withdrawal results in intolerable symptoms for most people.

This. 1000x this. I was on a short dose of ativan. 2.5 mg for 2 weeks but my doc thought since it was such a short timespan that I could c/t off no problem. That decision changed the course of my life forever. For the next 13 months I was in the 7th circle of hell. Unfortunately it lead to encephalitis which triggered my M.E. so in many ways it never went away but ultimately yes- full on benzo withdrawal is beyond any experience a human being should have to endure. And it just never ends.
 

2Cor.12:19

Senior Member
Messages
280
Interesting, by mid 2018, I too had neurological problems - peripheral neuropathy in particular flared, i.e. severe pain in my feet. I had to get on narcotics or get in a wheel chair.

I’m lucky to have a neurologist who believes as I do - that MECFS is neurological oriented. We continue to watch the research and look for ’footprints’... .

@Stretched - I realize this can't be taken with narcotics but have you tried LDN? Now, I don't know if there's anything to this, but I've been on LDN for almost 5 years for back, neck, and general all over ME/CFS and FM pain. I also take Tumeric. Last year when I was dx'd with "severe idiopathic polyneuroapathy" the doctor offered to prescribe something for pain. I think he was kinda surprised when I declined because my pain levels aren't all that bad. The neuropathy causes my feet and legs to be numb, vibrate, and are so sensitive that I can't go barefoot in the house. I feel every crumb on the floor (crazy, when they're numb at the same time!)

Plus my balance is so awful I take a cane when I go out. But I'm wondering if the LDN is keeping the neuropathic pain part away. Just a thought.
 
Messages
41
@Stretched - Last year when I was dx'd with "severe idiopathic polyneuroapathy" the doctor offered to prescribe something for pain. I think he was kinda surprised when I declined because my pain levels aren't all that bad. The neuropathy causes my feet and legs to be numb, vibrate, and are so sensitive that I can't go barefoot in the house. I feel every crumb on the floor (crazy, when they're numb at the same time!)

Plus my balance is so awful I take a cane when I go out. But I'm wondering if the LDN is keeping the neuropathic pain part away. Just a thought.

Interesting 2Cor.12:19. This was/is one of my more severe and long-lasting klonopin withdrawal symptoms.

A few years prior to beginning my taper, I was having increasing paresthesia in my lower legs. As my fast taper progressed into about Month 2 or 3, it evolved into a severe sensation of having my legs perpetually plugged into electrified water. No pain per se, just forever in a jacuzzi or vigorously bubbling brook. The vibrations and tinglings feel rooted in and emanating from my bones, not just on the surface. For weeks at a time, especially in the evenings, the sensations would travel up into my hips, pelvis and torso.

But thankfully, after 3 years off the poison, it is finally easing up quite a bit. It flares again at times, but eventually fades to mild. It's there more often than not (like right now, comparatively mild), but I've been surprised to notice it's almost gone for short periods some days now. So I have little doubt my 10 years on the benzo is the underlying culprit, and hoping that it may wholly resolve (if I live that long - hah!).

Similar goes for the worst (by far) symptom I had/have, still crippling at times but thankfully for 'only' weeks at a time, not endless months-to-years: neck pressure /squeezing sensations, like an accordion, from top of head to under collar bone and shoulders. The base of my cervical spine feels like a constant feed of couple hundred volts into my neck, which travels through my spine (meeting up with that neuropathy in the legs and feet). Never-ending. Agitating, aggravating, like an annoying big brother with his fingers on the back of your neck that never lets go, ever! I can see where unrecognized interdose w/d in some folks would cause violent or suicidal tendencies with this symptom! Causes severe cognition problems, brain = rotton pea soup. Not to mention exhaustion and collapse (which may be the toll it's taking on ME?).

But some of it is slowly resolving, in the classic "waves & windows" fashion. With this particular symptom (though they all feel interconnected at this point), the marked cognition decline which I mistook for rapidly progressing ME fog, was the only thing besides much more 'fatigue' I'd really noted while on the drug. I had never had this pressure/squeezing in my long life, or the chronic contracted neck and shoulder muscles until starting about half way through (about Week 8) my fast klonopin w/d. (Recently, the pressure travels up to my ears, mouth and back of head, which seems to be dominant in a lot of folks going through w/d and post w/d. But mildly, so far.) I'm left with chronic neck pain I never had in my life (feels like tendonitis), that started after roughly the second year of this BS....

I can only guess what these symptoms would feel like going through a very slow taper, or if they'd even be recognized as w/d symptoms. Undoubtedly they vary from person to person.
 

2Cor.12:19

Senior Member
Messages
280
I

But some of it is slowly resolving, in the classic "waves & windows" fashion. With this particular symptom (though they all feel interconnected at this point), the marked cognition decline which I mistook for rapidly progressing ME fog, was the only thing besides much more 'fatigue' I'd really noted while on the drug.
@hikinglo - It seems impossible to know how many of these symptoms are due to ME or Benzos.

I don’t believe my neuropathy is from benzos. I had sever ME for 13 years prior to starting benzos 20 yrs ago. From day 1 of my ME I’ve had parathesias in my legs. Sometimes worse than others. Since ME is largely a neurological disease, I believe it is the culprit.

However, I think benzos May play a part in worsening the condition. For one, benzos are linked to sleep apnea due to CNS suppression. Sleep Apnea causes nocturnal hypoxia which in turn, can either cause or exacerbate parathesias and even permanent nerve damage.

After my apnea was treated, my strange vibrations in my feet and leg improved. It didn’t cure it but it helped. Whenever I have a lot of apnea’s recorded on my morning report, there’s a corresponding increase in vibrations.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m sure the lions share of my neurological woes are attributed to ME/CFS.
 
Messages
41
@hikinglo - It seems impossible to know how many of these symptoms are due to ME or Benzos.

I don’t believe my neuropathy is from benzos. I had sever ME for 13 years prior to starting benzos 20 yrs ago. From day 1 of my ME I’ve had parathesias in my legs. Sometimes worse than others. Since ME is largely a neurological disease, I believe it is the culprit.

However, I think benzos May play a part in worsening the condition. For one, benzos are linked to sleep apnea due to CNS suppression. Sleep Apnea causes nocturnal hypoxia which in turn, can either cause or exacerbate parathesias and even permanent nerve damage.

After my apnea was treated, my strange vibrations in my feet and leg improved. It didn’t cure it but it helped. Whenever I have a lot of apnea’s recorded on my morning report, there’s a corresponding increase in vibrations.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m sure the lions share of my neurological woes are attributed to ME/CFS.

2Cor12:19 You know your body better than anyone; of course we are all different. I was just relating the contrast of symptoms I've had before, during and after (I had ME 10 years prior to ingesting klonopin.) No doubt they are all intermingling now. My first 10 years of unadulterated ME "neurological woes" were given a 'sedative' around Year 10 (i.e. add another 10 years on klonopin), then harsh jolt slap-in-the-face (w/d + post withdrawal damage for 3+ years and counting now). Your pre-benzo neuropathy sounded almost exactly like one of my w/d and post w/d lingering symptoms - that caught my eye, that's all.

My takeaway is that benzo damage appears to be very similar to ME damage; many people who did not have ME prior to taking a benzo now have a similar if not identical disease or syndrome. And for as many who have been damaged by benzos, I find it horrifying that benzos are listed in ME physicians' primers as acceptable treatments, and don't have HUGE WARNINGS that they are not to be prescribed beyond a week or two, even for seizures. Seems for many of us, they (prescribers and the benzos themselves) are making a bad situation worse.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
My takeaway is that benzo damage appears to be very similar to ME damage; many people who did not have ME prior to taking a benzo now have a similar if not identical disease or syndrome.
I agree, and I think the two overlap in may ways, ie benzos can make ME infinitely worse without changing the course or expression of that, and I think that it's quite possible that it can, given the right underlying conditions, precipitate ME.
I find it horrifying that benzos are listed in ME physicians' primers as acceptable treatments, and don't have HUGE WARNINGS
God, I couldn;t agree more.


I'll go a jaundiced step further: I don't think that it's an oversight or a lack of knowledge or input from patients. Benzos are a HUGELY profitable drug family and probably keep many Drs in Mercedes and vacation homes. And the drug companies do pretty well, too.
Seems for many of us, they (prescribers and the benzos themselves) are making a bad situation worse.
Which they profit from in ohhhhh, so many ways: from the prescribing and marketing of benzos, and then from all the problems that benzos cause in addition to whatever they were prescribed for, and all the additional prescriptions they precipitate and support. A marketer's dream.


Newman was right: it's a jungle out there. Caveat emptor.
 
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