Long covid improves after vaccine

[MikeC]

I saw this on my news feed this morning:
https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...e-shots-symptoms-improve-chronic-long-haulers

 

[bensmith]

You going to get it? (you a long hauler right?)

 

[MikeC]

You going to get it? (you a long hauler right?)

I'm EDS and small fiber neuropathy so all I can do is symptom management and hope CRISPR will have an answer for gene mutations someday.

 

[bensmith]

Yeah i feel you. Sorry.

 

[Alvin2]

Interesting, that suggest the virus is latent somehow.

 

[Hip]

This would be interesting to try, but a pity there are no vaccines for the main viruses linked to ME/CFS: coxsackievirus B, echovirus, EBV, cytomegalovirus and HHV-6.

 

[pattismith]

The vaccine shots they talk about are ARN vaccine (no adjuvant and no virus inside).

These vaccine are very special, they don't stimulate immunity against everything like adjuvated one, they don't stimulate immunity against the whole virus either.

So these vaccine protect against unwanted auto-immune activation, this makes them really interesting ones.

People with auto-inflammatory or auto-immune diseases should be proposed these kind of vaccine, they really have the power to put immune system back on good tracks;

I wish it could be available for common viruses involved in chronic auto-inflammatory or auto-immune diseases...

Many of Griffin’s patients who improved had significant side effects after their first shot of either the Moderna or Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine. That’s common in people who’ve had COVID-19 before — they already have some level of antibodies, so the first shot acts more like a second booster. Then, his patients with chronic symptoms started to report that their sense of smell was improving or that they weren’t as fatigued. “For some of them it was short lived. But for a chunk, it actually persisted — they went ahead, got their second shot out, and are saying, wow, they really feel like there’s light at the end of the tunnel,” Griffin says.

 

[Gingergrrl]

The vaccine shots they talk about are ARN vaccine (no adjuvant and no virus inside).

What is ARN vaccine?

People with auto-inflammatory or auto-immune diseases should be proposed these kind of vaccine, they really have the power to put immune system back on good tracks;

I've been reading every study I can find re: vaccines and autoimmunity and am trying to understand what you mean. When you said "proposed" did you mean "opposed" or something else? I'm trying to understand what you mean re: the COVID vaccine and autoimmunity. I read the article in the initial post but it seems to be referring to COVID long-haulers (not people with known autoimmune disease)- unless I am completely missing something?

 

[Pyrrhus]

What is ARN vaccine?

I think she meant "RNA vaccine"...

 

[percyval577]

The French are in several respects special, e.g. RNA -> ARN

 

[pattismith]

I think she meant "RNA vaccine"...

oh sorry, my english is as lazy as I am

 

[percyval577]

@Gingergrrl

Even more special about the French is, that DNA -> ADN
- watch out for the avatars of pattismith

 

[Gingergrrl]

I think she meant "RNA vaccine"...

Thanks for clarifying that ARN vaccine meant RNA! I am still confused though @pattismith re: what you were saying in post #7 re: the RNA vaccines and autoimmunity.

You said:

So these vaccine protect against unwanted auto-immune activation, this makes them really interesting ones. People with auto-inflammatory or auto-immune diseases should be proposed these kind of vaccine, they really have the power to put immune system back on good tracks;

What did you mean that the RNA vaccines (Pfizer & Moderna) protect against autoimmune activation? When you said "propose" did you mean oppose or something else? How do these vaccines have the power to put the immune system back on track? Did you mean (like the article in the initial post) that the vaccines are improving the symptoms in people with Long COVID (who were already exposed to COVID antibodies prior to getting the vaccine) or something else?

 

[Rich D]

I found this interesting because they propose two alternative theories based on these anecdotes. If Long Covid is a latent virus, the vaccine should result in long term improvement. If Long Covid is an autoimmune response, then the vaccine will result in only short term improvement. These competing hypotheses could be tested with a survey.

I had a short term remission once from taking plant tannins to knock down yeast and viruses in the gut. I had an immediate improvement (within a day) that lasted a few months, then I went back to baseline. That experience is consistent with the autoimmune hypothesis.

 

[pattismith]

What did you mean that the RNA vaccines (Pfizer & Moderna) protect against autoimmune activation? When you said "propose" did you mean oppose or something else? How do these vaccines have the power to put the immune system back on track? Did you mean (like the article in the initial post) that the vaccines are improving the symptoms in people with Long COVID (who were already exposed to COVID antibodies prior to getting the vaccine) or something else?

Ginger, I mean that RNA vaccine, as opposed to adjuvant vaccine, doesn't stimulate your full immune system, It just triggers a specific lymphocyte immune response to one foreign target protein.
It was already shown that adjuvant vaccine stimulates immune activity in general and potential auto-immune response in susceptible individuals. If they contain an attenuated virus, you can had the proper intrinsic ability of the virus to produce auto-immune response when cells starts to produce all the numerous different viral proteins they are coding for.

So RNA vaccine seem less likely to trigger an auto-immune response unless the target protein is badly chosen and present some mimicry with a self antigen.

Here a paper showing and adjuvanted vaccine in Sjogren patients can trigger an immune b lymphocyte response against EBV with increased EBV VCA IgG

H1N1 vaccination in Sjögren’s syndrome triggers polyclonal B cell activation and promotes autoantibody production 2017

doi: 10.1136/annrheumdis-2016-210509
Results
Surprisingly, treatment-naïve patients with Sjögren’s syndrome developed higher H1N1 IgG titres of greater avidity than healthy controls on vaccination.

Notably, off-target B cells were also triggered resulting in increased anti-EBV and autoantibody titres.

Endosomal toll-like receptor activation of naïve B cells in vitro revealed a greater propensity of patient-derived cells to differentiate into plasmablasts and higher production of class switched IgG.

The amplified plasma cell differentiation and class switch could be induced in cells from healthy donors by preincubation with type 1 interferon, but was abolished in hydroxychloroquine-treated patients and after in vitro exposure of naïve B cells to chloroquine.

Conclusions
This comprehensive analysis of the immune response in autoimmune patients to exogenous stimulation identifies a mechanistic basis for the B cell hyperactivity in Sjögren’s syndrome, and suggests that caution is warranted when considering vaccination in non-treated autoimmune patients.

View attachment 41869

Participants and vaccination procedure

Female patients with pSS fulfilling the American-European consensus critera7 and positive for anti-Ro/SSA and/or anti-La/SSB autoantibodies (n=14) and matched healthy controls (n=18) (supplementary table S1) were vaccinated twice with the squalene-adjuvanted inactivated split-virion H1N1 vaccine Pandemrix (GlaxoSmithKline, Brentford, UK). Blood sampling and collection of clinical parameters was performed prior to, and 1 and 3 weeks after each vaccination.

I found this interesting because they propose two alternative theories based on these anecdotes. If Long Covid is a latent virus, the vaccine should result in long term improvement. If Long Covid is an autoimmune response, then the vaccine will result in only short term improvement. These competing hypotheses could be tested with a survey.
.

this is exactly the same ME/CFS mystery we have to solve.
Is the infection still going on, is it a latent one, or has the virus disappear and it's just the immune answer still going on??
Let's hope covid research will help us clarify these questions...

 

[bensmith]

I found this interesting because they propose two alternative theories based on these anecdotes. If Long Covid is a latent virus, the vaccine should result in long term improvement. If Long Covid is an autoimmune response, then the vaccine will result in only short term improvement. These competing hypotheses could be tested with a survey.

I had a short term remission once from taking plant tannins to knock down yeast and viruses in the gut. I had an immediate improvement (within a day) that lasted a few months, I went back to baseline. That experience is consistent with the autoimmune hypothesis.

In one of my groups looks like many are coming back down after feeling better but its not clear yet at all. And i hear of some improvements, and none as well.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Ginger, I mean that RNA vaccine, as opposed to adjuvant vaccine, doesn't stimulate your full immune system, It just triggers a specific lymphocyte immune response to one foreign target protein.

oh...I had been coming to the opposite conclusion...that I should avoid the mRNA vaccines and do the more traditional adjuvent type, instead. (don't mess with my DNA, thank you).

 

[pattismith]

if long covid is a chronic infection, then RNA vaccine makes sense as a treatment I think

oh...I had been coming to the opposite conclusion...that I should avoid the mRNA vaccines and do the more traditional adjuvent type, instead. (don't mess with my DNA, thank you).

From my point of view, I cross fingers to be proposed a vaccine without adjuvant and with limited antigen content. RNA vaccine are typically the one I hope to get.
these vaccine are a kind of surgical strike, I mean it’s like a drone attack as opposed to an atomic bomb.
I got an adjuvanted flu vaccine last October, and it was a real nuclear weapon in my body. I am still inflamed in my enthesis, my brain and my skin and I can’t get another adjuvanted vaccine of any kind

 

[Pyrrhus]

In one of my groups looks like many are coming back down after feeling better but its not clear yet at all. And i hear of some improvements, and none as well.

That's fascinating. Please keep us updated!

 

[Gingergrrl]

Ginger, I mean that RNA vaccine, as opposed to adjuvant vaccine, doesn't stimulate your full immune system, It just triggers a specific lymphocyte immune response to one foreign target protein. It was already shown that adjuvant vaccine stimulates immune activity in general and potential auto-immune response in susceptible individuals.

Thank you for explaining what you meant in your prior post @pattismith. My doctor told me the same thing (that these COVID mRNA vaccines are safer than ANY vaccine with adjuvants for someone w/autoimmunity like me). The adjuvants cause the vaccines to speed up the immune response so it is even stronger (and more likely to trigger new autoimmunity or to worsen pre-existing autoimmunity).

However, it is not yet known what these mRNA vaccines will do to someone w/a history of severe autoimmunity (like me). Even though the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines do not contain traditional adjuvants, there are no studies (short or long-term) in how they affect autoimmunity. That is one of the main reasons that I will not be getting the vaccine when it is offered to me in the upcoming months.

If my autoimmunity was not in remission and I was still severely ill and disabled (like I was prior to treatment), than I actually probably would get the COVID vaccine b/c I would feel that I had nothing to lose. But being in remission from the autoimmunity, I feel that I have literally everything to lose if the vaccine ended my remission. I feel that I have a much great chance of damage from the vaccine than from COVID (for me personally).

So RNA vaccine seem less likely to trigger an auto-immune response unless the target protein is badly chosen and present some mimicry with a self antigen.

That is interesting re: the mimicry with a self-antigen.

Here a paper showing and adjuvanted vaccine in Sjogren patients can trigger an immune b lymphocyte response against EBV with increased EBV VCA IgG

I wanted to clarify (since I have minimal science background ), is this study with Sjogrens patients and vaccines an example of molecular mimicry (like you mentioned above) or is it simply showing how autoimmunity can be triggered by vaccines with adjuvants?

From my point of view, I cross fingers to be proposed a vaccine without adjuvant and with limited antigen content. RNA vaccine are typically the one I hope to get.

I agree w/you and if there was a scenario where I had to get a COVID vaccine, I would absolutely want the one without adjuvants (Pfizer & Moderna). Can you explain more what you mean re: "limited antigen content"? Which of the existing COVID vaccines would fall into that category?

I got an adjuvanted flu vaccine last October, and it was a real nuclear weapon in my body. I am still inflamed in my enthesis, my brain and my skin and I can’t get another adjuvanted vaccine of any kind

I am so sorry to hear that and I have never gotten a flu vaccine in my life. When I had a neurotoxic reaction to a fluoroquinolone antibiotic in 2010 (which damaged the tendon in my arm and I ended up in hospital), I was told by a Neuro at that time that I should never get a flu vaccine in the future. Sadly, I did not learn of the specific reason why, but his words have stuck w/me. And now my current docs agree that I should never get a vaccine w/adjuvants, and ideally I should not get ANY vaccines. COVID is the one exception where they feel the risk could be worth it (and I totally understand why) but I am still not willing to risk ending my remission.