LASER THERAPY FOR CCI/AAI

[bread.]

What are your thoughts on that? Is there a realistic chance that that might could help?

There are different kinds of lasers, and it seems to be quite complex, would you look into it?

@Hip

 

[ScottTriGuy]

My experience a few years ago with laser therapy: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/led-red-intranasal-light-therapy.24195/page-13#post-642474

I have not used my unit in a couple of years and I have not declined again into severe.

In retrospect, and in light of @jeff_w experience, I wonder if laser therapy on the brainstem is a symptom treatment for the sub-group of pwME with CCI/AAI or other neck issues.

 

[Chris]

You don't need to go to lasers--a good LED unit may help; I have a Red Light Man LED unit -the Infrared Mini-which uses Near Infra Red light at 830nm and use that on the nape of my neck which seems to help a bit--I find it a very useful little unit of considerable power, and not too expensive.

 

[Hip]

What are your thoughts on that? Is there a realistic chance that that might could help?

If you are talking about low-level laser therapy (LLLT), which uses red or near infrared light, then as @Chris mentions, an LED unit will be just as effective and cheaper, as long as you get the right wavelength. 830 nm is probably the best, as it is the wavelength of infrared light than penetrates the deepest into the tissues. Whether it penetrates enough to reach the brainstem and ligaments of the craniocervical junction I am not sure.

@ScottTriGuy found such LED light therapy applied to his neck made a major improvement to his ME/CFS — see this post.

 

[Daffodil]

someone asked about laser therapy on the regenexx website comment section. someone from regenexx replied:
"Laser therapy would not be recommended, as the goal is to tighten lax ligaments and or heal injured ones, and Laser therapy has the opposite effect."

I am not sure why they would say this since lasers are used all the time to tighten skin and promote healing and stuff.... when i go to the clinic next week, i will ask the doctor about this. if i remember, that is...

 

[Daffodil]

this website talks about class 4 laser for facet joint treatment in the cervical area:

http://www.drlewert.com/index.php?p=495035

 

[bread.]

someone asked about laser therapy on the regenexx website comment section. someone from regenexx replied:
"Laser therapy would not be recommended, as the goal is to tighten lax ligaments and or heal injured ones, and Laser therapy has the opposite effect."

I am not sure why they would say this since lasers are used all the time to tighten skin and promote healing and stuff.... when i go to the clinic next week, i will ask the doctor about this. if i remember, that is...

could you send me the link for this?

 

[Chris]

Most lasers emit a very narrow beam of light; if you know exactly where your problem lies, and are confident that you could aim the laser to hit it, that might be the way to go. If you suspect that several vertabrae are involved, and want to treat the whole neck area, I think a good LED unit might be more useful-as well, of course, as being much cheaper.

 

[Sidny]

Could sun exposure possibly have a similar positive effect like 830nm near infra red light from LEDs does?

 

[Hopeful2021]

If you are talking about low-level laser therapy (LLLT), which uses red or near infrared light, then as @Chris mentions, an LED unit will be just as effective and cheaper, as long as you get the right wavelength. 830 nm is probably the best, as it is the wavelength of infrared light than penetrates the deepest into the tissues. Whether it penetrates enough to reach the brainstem and ligaments of the craniocervical junction I am not sure.

@ScottTriGuy found such LED light therapy applied to his neck made a major improvement to his ME/CFS — see this post.

Hello.
I had severe hyper mobility and intracranial instability
. One thing that literally helped save me was class 4 laser. Class four is hot!!!! So not led red light therapy, IR or cold laser. It literally saved me.
It is also hard to take what happens after. All the adjustments in the connective tissue. I was in ketosis at the time from not being able to eat nor could I use my jaw or could I swallow and chew safely. So while it was Extremely beneficial, it wasn't easy. Eventually I could do more and more with less repercussions. I am very very grateful to having had access to it.
For instability, I found eventually that IV nutrients helped. Then later that IV NAD for at least 3 consecutive days for the most beneficial.
Hope this info is helpful.

 

[Hip]

One thing that literally helped save me was class 4 laser. Class four is hot!!!! So not led red light therapy, IR or cold laser. It literally saved me.

Is this laser therapy specifically designed to treat craniocervical instability? How does it work?

 

[Hopeful2021]

@Hip
This laser is not specifically designed for 1 issue. It has menus for skin color, intensity, wave length.
I'd say the research on tissue, ligaments, tendons, blood, organs etc etc is pretty thin and likely only in animal models. I don't think any hospital in the USA uses laser therapy only in their bone/ortho departments for some surgeries.
Even veterinarians should have been using coke lasers for years are still pretty skeptical. So if that kind of double blind research is important to you, I wouldn't waste too many spoons on it.
I can tell you that I got my inspiration from a book
The Brain's Way of Healing and another by the same author. He shares success stories and there are some neat ones about not only light therapy but laser therapy.
It's called photo modulation in research papers.
The concept is packets or photons of light energy and what cells do when they have access to this light energy.
Since there's lot of inflammation and low oxygen known in this disease, light therapy is a form that I like to use.
What I learned in the book from his interview notes from a doctor in Canada was that I was using my light therapies all wrong....!!!
oh dear - no wonder they weren't working that well.
LOL
it's important to think of layers --- or to imagine a champagne glass fountain.... each packet of light must fill up the first layer before the layer you are targeting can get access to the next coming packets of light...!!!
epiphany ...!!!
Light therapy is then about the time you put in to effect each layer. It's also one of the most time consuming therapies I've used.

now, this laser because it is a laser and it is hot can go deeper quicker. And it actually can not be used on a focused section for more than a few seconds. Because as it is a laser, it penetrates and contains so many packets of light that it can fill that champagne fountain layer/time very quickly.
But also because it can burn, you can't fix everything in one go.
Cranial issues are super sensitive so like I said earlier, cooping with the changes were also something to deal with. Mostly it was manageable, but just just just barely.
Are you a student of connective tissue and posture? It would be helpful to study more about how things work together before using this laser. My chiropractor staff just set the laser robot on me and left. They were extremely resistant to targeting where I said I needed it, but eventually they too could see the immediate results.
(I was gagging and bent over and near immobile and very out of it.)

I am again very very thankful that I listened to that book and just randomly googled class 4 laser. What is accomplished, with laser is pretty miraculous. There are no good measuring devices where one can say 1 plus 2 equals 3. At least not yet anyway.

I did utilize my other light devices, one of which is infrared. It was helpful but only briefly and if I didn't have access to that laser, I'd probably would have ended up on a feeding tube and in assisted living at my best end option range.

I have surmised that everyone's neck stability issues are complicated. I am theorizing that it's our overall muscle weakness but more specifically how deeply this diseases turns off huge patterns in the muscles, connective tissue and likely the brain.

It's only been in my 18 month restoration journey where I've seen how deeply this disease took away my body's vast utility. I use several neuroplasticity devices to turn off old patterns that don't serve and create new ones. Often, I am emotionally drained and utterly shocked at discovering again what I lost at say the first year or even four years ago. If I hadn't already had a great deal of knowledge and experience in posture and connective tissue, I think I could easily stay dreary and defeated. What's really beautiful about the stories in that book
The Brain's Way of Healing
is the many options that already exist and surely there are more to try.

There are a great number of up and coming physical therapists and trainers and schools about muscles/neurological connections. Almost every month, I hear about some new success story using some type of neuroplasticity training which encompasses every from light, sound, temperature, current, cueing, etc etc.

thank you for reading so much. It's a lot, I know. Hope it was helpful in some way.

 

[sb4]

@Hopeful2021 This machine you use, could it be partially replicated by using a class 4 laser pointer?

 

[Hopeful2021]

@Hopeful2021 This machine you use, could it be partially replicated by using a class 4 laser pointer?

@sb4 I guess so. Years ago, I looked at the parts to make a class 3/cold laser. I don't have the math skills and at the time there wasn't a YouTube selection on how to.
the parts that focus light to a laser and the temperature are solid science. I will share that an acupuncturist used a small laser/ like a pointer on my neck and I was in a crash for 3-6 months. (I was bedridden for 2 weeks with only 1 trip to the potty with great difficulty getting there - 20 shuffle steps away).
I don't know if you read my comments about light therapy and the champagne fountain. I definitely do not recommend using such a small beam (my class 4 has probably about 30 laser pointer beams at its widest setting and recommended distance from treatment site)
Maybe maybe if I knew that I would not over do it, literally a fast 2 second count, maybe even a 1 second count.... and most importantly if I put the time in to fill up all those champagne fountain levels with other light devices like an IR bulb and red LED first. So at the end of three other layering sessions.... only , seriously ONLY then would I put a laser to try and invigorate the spots needed to bring some peace to the connective tissue, nerves, and muscles and brain patterns.
I would start with other body parts.... the arms for example and the lower legs. Neck and vestibular abilities get stability from many parts of the body, such as the feet and ankles.
Most brain trauma patients end up getting to see a podiatrist to assist them and it's really evident to pick out ppl with vestibular problems by just glancing at different patterns at work or in stuck mode in their body.
So again, me personally based on my ten years of neck instability and ME.... I would save the laser for the last 3 minutes of layered light therapy of at least 45min. And this 3 minutes would probably only include 15 seconds of laser broken into 2 seconds on specific areas and NOT on the neck until I have about 3 weeks of understanding how several things will respond.
Class 4 laser saved me and it is extremely powerful and often I was not able to move. I didn't understand how bad my brain was and after using class 4 laser, with all the extreme and beneficial physical changes I suspect that my brain couldn't handle re-processing so many new patterns. Or I didn't have a huge surplus of nutrients to help enable to brain to process all these patterns.... or indeed my brain was just continuing on a decline that it started.
I needed to be able to swallow.... water was a luxury. It was good I loved fasting because swallowing food was a challenge and keeping it down was a surprise. Involuntary vomiting was going to eventually put me on a feeding tube.
chewing and swallowing are still a game of roulette for me. I can't depend on my abilities, but I'm ridiculously better than I was then. And I don't mind missing a good steak if I think later in 2-3 days I can eat one.
I don't use class 4 on my neck anymore. I know how drastic the changes can be and that I can drive and walk now are two wonderful things I'm not willing to risk. I have other devices that are slower to get results but with the airway abd vagus nerve it is worthwhile and life preserving to be patient and go slow.
If you have a video on your phone, it's worthwhile to video yourself standing, sitting and laying down in different positions to see how your patterns change drastically. You will see it in your jaw or lips or eye movements or your neck muscles and likely you will feel it in your tongue and throat.
but do this a number of times so you know what parts and patterns you will be targeting. And then go with what you think will be safest and video after. It's like a moving Jenga game.... I'm often surprised and I'm still alive.
you and all those sensors in your body know what is safe and not safe. The Brain is constantly getting feedback about postural safety. It's not primarily about bones and disc space.
****
**** have you read or listened to that book
The Brain's Way of Healing? It was my inspiration for finding many therapies to coax my brain and patterns to peace and stability now .... but it took hundreds of hours and consistency. And hundred of hours of being in extreme panic or fear. That is the part that I don't like to remember. I don't wish instability on anyone and I have a great deal of sympathy for those going through it. It is dreadful.... I often told family members and friends that I would go back to being bedridden and stuck looking up at the ceiling for what I was going through.
please keep asking me questions when they arise. I don't mean to be so stern in my tone, but I also don't want anyone to think laser is a easy and carefree solution.

 

[sb4]

I don't know if you read my comments about light therapy and the champagne fountain. I definitely do not recommend using such a small beam (my class 4 has probably about 30 laser pointer beams at its widest setting and recommended distance from treatment site)

So you have 30 laser pointers and treatment lasts a couple of seconds at a time. Do you think shining a class 4 laser say on the torso for a minute, but moving it around, would very roughly simulate what is happening with your treatment?

 

[Hopeful2021]

No. Not 30. Just one. Tried to give you an estimate of the beam size since you asked about laser pointer vs a class 4.
The average body area time frame is about 4 minutes with each 3 square inch area getting rapid seconds long exposure so as to not burn.
There's different settings to for skin color, amount of skin (chubby, paper thin skin, etc)

definitely recommend getting a professional session and seeing how you like it before experimenting with lots of laser pointers

the robot laser is the nicest

 

[sb4]

@Hopeful2021 Okay I understand now, thanks.

 

[Hopeful2021]

Look

@Hopeful2021 Okay I understand now, thanks.

Looking forward to hearing what you try, what laser, your new regime, and results. Exciting that you are curious.

 

[sb4]

Looking forward to hearing what you try, what laser, your new regime, and results. Exciting that you are curious.

It something I am considering maybe in the mid/near future. I have messed around with light therapy for a while, already have a ton of lights gavering dust in my room. It's like £60 for a class 4 laser so not bad. I will post somewhere here if I decide to try it.

 

[dahsar]

@sb4 I guess so. Years ago, I looked at the parts to make a class 3/cold laser. I don't have the math skills and at the time there wasn't a YouTube selection on how to.
the parts that focus light to a laser and the temperature are solid science. I will share that an acupuncturist used a small laser/ like a pointer on my neck and I was in a crash for 3-6 months. (I was bedridden for 2 weeks with only 1 trip to the potty with great difficulty getting there - 20 shuffle steps away).
I don't know if you read my comments about light therapy and the champagne fountain. I definitely do not recommend using such a small beam (my class 4 has probably about 30 laser pointer beams at its widest setting and recommended distance from treatment site)
Maybe maybe if I knew that I would not over do it, literally a fast 2 second count, maybe even a 1 second count.... and most importantly if I put the time in to fill up all those champagne fountain levels with other light devices like an IR bulb and red LED first. So at the end of three other layering sessions.... only , seriously ONLY then would I put a laser to try and invigorate the spots needed to bring some peace to the connective tissue, nerves, and muscles and brain patterns.
I would start with other body parts.... the arms for example and the lower legs. Neck and vestibular abilities get stability from many parts of the body, such as the feet and ankles.
Most brain trauma patients end up getting to see a podiatrist to assist them and it's really evident to pick out ppl with vestibular problems by just glancing at different patterns at work or in stuck mode in their body.
So again, me personally based on my ten years of neck instability and ME.... I would save the laser for the last 3 minutes of layered light therapy of at least 45min. And this 3 minutes would probably only include 15 seconds of laser broken into 2 seconds on specific areas and NOT on the neck until I have about 3 weeks of understanding how several things will respond.
Class 4 laser saved me and it is extremely powerful and often I was not able to move. I didn't understand how bad my brain was and after using class 4 laser, with all the extreme and beneficial physical changes I suspect that my brain couldn't handle re-processing so many new patterns. Or I didn't have a huge surplus of nutrients to help enable to brain to process all these patterns.... or indeed my brain was just continuing on a decline that it started.
I needed to be able to swallow.... water was a luxury. It was good I loved fasting because swallowing food was a challenge and keeping it down was a surprise. Involuntary vomiting was going to eventually put me on a feeding tube.
chewing and swallowing are still a game of roulette for me. I can't depend on my abilities, but I'm ridiculously better than I was then. And I don't mind missing a good steak if I think later in 2-3 days I can eat one.
I don't use class 4 on my neck anymore. I know how drastic the changes can be and that I can drive and walk now are two wonderful things I'm not willing to risk. I have other devices that are slower to get results but with the airway abd vagus nerve it is worthwhile and life preserving to be patient and go slow.
If you have a video on your phone, it's worthwhile to video yourself standing, sitting and laying down in different positions to see how your patterns change drastically. You will see it in your jaw or lips or eye movements or your neck muscles and likely you will feel it in your tongue and throat.
but do this a number of times so you know what parts and patterns you will be targeting. And then go with what you think will be safest and video after. It's like a moving Jenga game.... I'm often surprised and I'm still alive.
you and all those sensors in your body know what is safe and not safe. The Brain is constantly getting feedback about postural safety. It's not primarily about bones and disc space.
****
**** have you read or listened to that book
The Brain's Way of Healing? It was my inspiration for finding many therapies to coax my brain and patterns to peace and stability now .... but it took hundreds of hours and consistency. And hundred of hours of being in extreme panic or fear. That is the part that I don't like to remember. I don't wish instability on anyone and I have a great deal of sympathy for those going through it. It is dreadful.... I often told family members and friends that I would go back to being bedridden and stuck looking up at the ceiling for what I was going through.
please keep asking me questions when they arise. I don't mean to be so stern in my tone, but I also don't want anyone to think laser is a easy and carefree solution.

Hi! Do you have a link for your class 4 laser? Been very inspired by your posts on IV NAD+ and HBOT as well