lactobacillus overgrowth, d-lactate

[powertool4]

hi,

this is the only forum i've found other than autism forums that focus on d-lactate levels and connection to CFS. My gut issues are primarily bloating in the small intestine after eating. It is really bad. it is always bloated with trapped gas in the Small itnestine 24/7 but after i eat it started to fill up all the way to my colon. it is very very uncomfortable and painful. I cant eat anything!

I got a stool test, and tried a whole bunch of probiotics and i was always looking for the most potent kinds but i had mixed results. I am CONVINCED that there is some fermentation or bacterial interaction with my food going on in my small intestine (it's observable and tangible) so i went to get a SIBO test. SIBO was normal. I would have bet a million dollars on it so imagine my surprise. the GI did say that it does not mean something bacterial is going on and that the intestines and bacteria is very little understood.

I don't do well on lactobacillus acidolphus at ALL. anything with lacto strains i get more bloated, acid reflux, heart burn etc. and i can only imagine there is too much lactic acid going on. So i looked up lactobacillus overgrowth and surely, you can have too much lacto acid and other d-lactate producing lacto bacteria overgrowth, and not enough NON D-LACTATE lacto (which is a dysbiosis among lacto species of its own). I am looking for a d-lactate free probiotic, does anyone know of any???


i did a search and fond that kefir might be it but it wasn't conclusive. Align was a good one which i will try but my problem is mainly in the small intestine so i need a few lacto strains that work to fight against the lacto overgrowth that i have.

Last question! do ALL bifidobacteria help against d-lactate? i heard bifido ONLY produce l-lactate and not d-lactate and raise the pH levels of the colon which is why it's good. but im not sure if its all the bifido species or select ones.

any help or input appreciated!

 

[consuegra]

The probiotics that I have found that do not have d-lactate are Custom Probiotics (d-lactate free), Culturelle and Align.

Mutaflor, purchased in and shipped from Germany, is reputed also to be a good probiotic for CFS/ME.

You might phone up Custom Probiotics and talk to Harry who designed these Custom Probiotics.

Chris

http://cfspatientadvocate.blogspot.com

 

[brenda]

I have been using miso drinks to repopulate my bowel. Just a few spoonfuls in a cup of hot water. It is naturally fermented.

 

[acer2000]

I use custom probiotics. They aren't as strong as VSL3 per capsule, but they are dairy free (and some are d-lactate free) so they agree with my stomach better. I recommend them.

 

[powertool4]

wow thanks!

i wanted to order but their d-lactate free has the l. salivarius strain which isn't d-lactate unless he modified it somehow.. did you ever ask him about that?

i know lactoflamx is also a d-lactate free from what i've heard.

geez $100 bucks for the customprobiotcs!!! i wish there was somethign cheaper.. or if hed give me a sample or something yikes

 

[Suzy]

Hi there,
Regarding the SIBO, did you do both the hydrogen and methane breath test ? I have read (can't find reference now) that some will test -ve on teh hydrogen but +ve on the methane.

Suzy

 

[powertool4]

Hi there,
Regarding the SIBO, did you do both the hydrogen and methane breath test ? I have read (can't find reference now) that some will test -ve on teh hydrogen but +ve on the methane.

Suzy

I have gotten the hydrogen test but i'm not sure about methane. i think it was both but i am not quite sure..
but i know that as soon as i ingested the lactulose that the Gi doc gave me, i started bloating up in the small intestine almost immediately so i know it's something going on in the small intestine. the SIBO was clear but i'm looking into d-lactate acidosis because that seems to be something you can't really check thru SIBO.

 

[SCDandfree]

Best results with Spec. Carbo. Diet

hi,

this is the only forum i've found other than autism forums that focus on d-lactate levels and connection to CFS. My gut issues are primarily bloating in the small intestine after eating. It is really bad. it is always bloated with trapped gas in the Small itnestine 24/7 but after i eat it started to fill up all the way to my colon. it is very very uncomfortable and painful. I cant eat anything!

I got a stool test, and tried a whole bunch of probiotics and i was always looking for the most potent kinds but i had mixed results. I am CONVINCED that there is some fermentation or bacterial interaction with my food going on in my small intestine (it's observable and tangible) so i went to get a SIBO test. SIBO was normal. I would have bet a million dollars on it so imagine my surprise. the GI did say that it does not mean something bacterial is going on and that the intestines and bacteria is very little understood.

I don't do well on lactobacillus acidolphus at ALL. anything with lacto strains i get more bloated, acid reflux, heart burn etc. and i can only imagine there is too much lactic acid going on. So i looked up lactobacillus overgrowth and surely, you can have too much lacto acid and other d-lactate producing lacto bacteria overgrowth, and not enough NON D-LACTATE lacto (which is a dysbiosis among lacto species of its own). I am looking for a d-lactate free probiotic, does anyone know of any???


i did a search and fond that kefir might be it but it wasn't conclusive. Align was a good one which i will try but my problem is mainly in the small intestine so i need a few lacto strains that work to fight against the lacto overgrowth that i have.

Last question! do ALL bifidobacteria help against d-lactate? i heard bifido ONLY produce l-lactate and not d-lactate and raise the pH levels of the colon which is why it's good. but im not sure if its all the bifido species or select ones.

any help or input appreciated!

Have you ever read the book Breaking the Vicious Cycle? It discusses the role of harmful bacteria overgrowth in the gut in a variety of physical and neurological disorders and recommends a diet to address these issues. I do not have a CFS diagnosis, but I have many of the symptoms you describe as well as others associated with CFS. I found myself 100% symptom-free within days with the use of this diet. I then went on a Lactobacillus sporogenes at the recommendation of a naturopath, only to find myself relapsing a couple of weeks later. I then researched L. sporogenes and found that it is is not a naturally occurring intestinal bacteria, and the lactic acid produced by this and other "lacto" probiotics can be absorbed into the bloodstream and thence by the brain. Lactic acid, whether L- or D- is associated with muscular and other neurological symptoms, including movement disorders, irritability and a drunken-like state. It would appear that some individuals are less able to digest certain types of carbohydrates, and carbohydrate malabsorption is associated with the D-lactate acidosis and symptoms thereof. I am pretty much convinced, through twenty years of trial and error, that the theory outlined in Breaking the Vicious Cycle and the "treatment" that is the Specific Carboyhydrate Diet is the answer for me.

 

[Glynis Steele]

Wow, I am really impressed with this. Have you seen my thread on DLA and CFS? Here is the link. Basically I am saying that d-lactic acid is not picked up in routine blood tests, a specific d-lactate assay kit must be used.

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?8022-D-Lactic-Acidosis-in-CFS

I have somehow managed to find a paper called "Lactobacilli and Acidosis in Children with Short Small Bowel", which I printed out for myself. I cannot access this paper now, but it states that "Lactobacilli can be divided into 2 major groups: homolactic and heterolactic. The homolactic ones produce lactic acids only from fermentable sugars (not lactulose) and the heterolactic ones produce lactic acids, ethanol and CO2. Because sugar hydrogen breath tests are based on bacterial fermentative production of molecular hydrogen from the sugar, whereas this type of bacteria cannot do so, it is useless to examine overgrowth of lactobacilli or malabsorption of sugars by means of a sugar (lactulose) breath test. During a glucose-loading experiment in an adult with SSB (short small bowel) we confirmed that molecular hydrogen was not detectable in a breath test (unpublished data).

In the link to the thread above, I enclosed another link to a paper in which the short bowel patient develped dla after ingestion of probiotics. Here it is again, if you are interested.

http://hkjpaed.org/details.asp?id=577&show=1234

I have had this dla stuff going round in my head for years, it's wonderful that I have found a place to share this info.

Best Wishes

Glynis

 

[lono]

wow thanks!

i wanted to order but their d-lactate free has the l. salivarius strain which isn't d-lactate unless he modified it somehow.. did you ever ask him about that?

i know lactoflamx is also a d-lactate free from what i've heard.

geez $100 bucks for the customprobiotcs!!! i wish there was somethign cheaper.. or if hed give me a sample or something yikes

Why don't you try Culturelle? It's much cheaper, is d-lactate free, is available in a gluten-free & dairy free formulation and there have been a number of research studies pointing to the efficacy of its probiotic strain (Lactobacillus GG).

http://www.culturelle.com/about_culturelle/product_dairyfree30

 

[cigana]

Hi powertool4,

I am like you - bloating is my main symptom (and has been before CFS). Do you tend toward constipation rather than diarrhea? If so methane-producing bacteria are likely to be the problem (rather than hydrogen).

Also be aware bloating might not necessarily be due to SIBO, it could for example be due to carbohydrate malabsorption - when the intestine is irritated it can draw in water and cause bloating. I think I must have both SIBO and some other kind of bloating (probably malabsorption). SIBO tends to occur low down in the intestines (nearer the large intestine), whereas I get bloated within an hour after eating (so it can't have reached the lower parts). But I also think I've got SIBO too.

An elemental diet has vastly reduced the bloating for me, you might find it benefits you too.

Best wishes,

Cig

 

[Artful]

Only recently did I test high lactate - which goes a long way to explain why I need so much magnesium to stave off leg and foot twitches and severe cramps. Apparently from what I've read recently it's being recognized that high lactate is caused by gut dysbiosis. I first got on the dysbiosis trail over 33 yrs. ago.

Have y'all read Breaking the Vicious Cycle by Elaine Gottschal? It explains what you're observing. The Specific Carbohydrate diet Gottschal describes helps many, many people. I've been on a low-carb version of it for maybe 30 yrs.

 

[Daffodil]

Only recently did I test high lactate - which goes a long way to explain why I need so much magnesium to stave off leg and foot twitches and severe cramps. Apparently from what I've read recently it's being recognized that high lactate is caused by gut dysbiosis. I first got on the dysbiosis trail over 33 yrs. ago.

Have y'all read Breaking the Vicious Cycle by Elaine Gottschal? It explains what you're observing. The Specific Carbohydrate diet Gottschal describes helps many, many people. I've been on a low-carb version of it for maybe 30 yrs.

artful..may i ask if this diet is helping you?

 

[Artful]

Let's just say that I have more energy at 67 than I did as a child and I'm the healthiest 67 yo you may ever have met. Even though I just learned that I'm homozygous for A1298C. I DO have to eat low-carb, almost ketogenic.

 

[Artful]

I actually do a low-carb, no dairy, no grains Rotation Diet trying to keep 4 days between ingestion of foods, if possible. This is due to a tendency to develop food sensitivities. Most SCDers eat baked goods made with nuts and honey and they emphasize probiotics, neither of which I can do.

See: http://www.food-allergy.org/rotation.html

and http://arthritistrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/PhilpottFourDayDiet.pdf

 

[MeSci]

Only recently did I test high lactate - which goes a long way to explain why I need so much magnesium to stave off leg and foot twitches and severe cramps. Apparently from what I've read recently it's being recognized that high lactate is caused by gut dysbiosis. I first got on the dysbiosis trail over 33 yrs. ago.

Cramps, in the presence of high (d-)lactate, may very well be due to loss of sodium or perhaps potassium. This paper says:

metabolic acidosis may be present without a rise in the plasma anion gap. In this latter setting, either the D-lactate anion was retained in the lumen of the GI tract (with the H being absorbed or titrated by bicarbonate in the lumen of the GI tract), or it was excreted in the urine, but in either case, the cation lost with it was Na and/or K ion

I have suffered from near-life-threatening hyponatraemia (low blood sodium) twice since getting ME. So I have increased my sodium intake, supplement with other minerals, and along with low-carb, gluten avoidance, pacing and other supplements these have made a big and positive difference.

 

[Artful]

The sodium or potassium thing is the party line i've heard for years. But, having checked out those approaches, I've recognized for over 20 yrs. that my problem is a magnesium deficiency.

I've been terribly blessed. Due to searching out and having been lead 34 yrs. ago to a nutritional CURE for my then 8 yo son's autism I learned that I had severe food allergies, myself, and then I discovered that those were caused by carb problems - a far bigger deal than just gluten problems. I'm terribly blessed to have been doing the things you detail for over 30 yrs. and am, consequently, extremely healthy for my age. Like SCDandfree replied above (three years ago!) I've been benefitting from the Specific Carbohydrate Diet for almost 9 yrs. Am still curious about the gut gysbiosis/high lactate link, though.

 

[xks201]

Cramps, in the presence of high (d-)lactate, may very well be due to loss of sodium or perhaps potassium. This paper says:



I have suffered from near-life-threatening hyponatraemia (low blood sodium) twice since getting ME. So I have increased my sodium intake, supplement with other minerals, and along with low-carb, gluten avoidance, pacing and other supplements these have made a big and positive difference.

Great find!!!! This implicates d-lactate acidosis with electrolyte loss. Amazing.