Is ME/CFS caused by cellular & organelle membrane dysfunction?

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The thing about mecfs is that it appears to be stimulation intolerance rather than excertion intolerance. Patients are hypersensitive to all sorts of stuff, foods, sounds, light, excertion, emotions etc all cause fatigue. So there seems to be a frailty at the center of it that could be explained by cellular & organelle membranes being near the breaking point and therefore any stimulus that can cause an upset is not allowed.

First im throwing in how the cytoskeleton and the membrane is related. I think some results on the cytoskeleton in mecfs could be a hint thats pointing at the cellular membrane. Basically if there is something wrong with the cytoskeleton then it could affect the membrane negatively.

We often think about cells as soft, unstructured blobs. But in reality, they are highly structured in much the same way as our own bodies. They have a network of filaments known as the cytoskeleton (literally, “cell skeleton”), which not only supports the plasma membrane and gives the cell an overall shape, but also aids in the correct positioning of organelles, provides tracks for the transport of vesicles, and (in many cell types) allows the cell to move.

Genetic study from 2022 found the TPPP gene region to be the most associated with the disease although the result was not statistically significant, maybe because GWAS studies usually need alot more people to get results.

Quote about this gene from GeneCards
Enables several functions, including GTPase activity; magnesium ion binding activity; and protein homodimerization activity. Involved in several processes, including microtubule cytoskeleton organization; negative regulation of tubulin deacetylation; and positive regulation of protein polymerization. Located in several cellular components, including mitochondrion; mitotic spindle; and perinuclear region of cytoplasm. Colocalizes with microtubule and microtubule bundle.

Another finding reported in 2022 from the NIH was the WASF3 gene overexpression which led them to do a follow up study.

I found the following quote at GeneCards
Downstream effector molecules involved in the transmission of signals from tyrosine kinase receptors and small GTPases to the actin cytoskeleton. Plays a role in the regulation of cell morphology and cytoskeletal organization. Required in the control of cell shape.

Research from 2020 by Missialidis et al shown below indicated a problem keeping an electric potential across the mitochondrial membrane, maybe because of proton leakage.

As a proportion of the basal oxygen consumption rate (OCR), the rate of ATP synthesis by Complex V was significantly reduced in ME/CFS lymphoblasts, while significant elevations were observed in Complex I OCR, maximum OCR, spare respiratory capacity, nonmitochondrial OCR and “proton leak” as a proportion of the basal OCR. This was accompanied by a reduction of mitochondrial membrane potential, chronically hyperactivated TOR Complex I stress signaling and upregulated expression of mitochondrial respiratory complexes, fatty acid transporters, and enzymes of the β-oxidation and TCA cycles.


From 2019 there is the paper from Ron Davis that showed reduced deformability of red blood cells in mecfs patients, here is their conclusion:

RESULTS AND CONCLUSION:
We observed from various measures of deformability that the RBCs isolated from ME/CFS patients were significantly stiffer than those from healthy controls. Our observations suggest that RBC transport through microcapillaries may explain, at least in part, the ME/CFS phenotype, and promises to be a novel first-pass diagnostic test.

Extracellular vesicles are blobs made from membrane lipids, i imagine that if the cell has inadequate membrane lipids then the vesicles it produces will be affected somehow. Here is a quote from a 2017 study

We found that the amount of EV-enriched fraction was significantly higher in CFS/ME subjects than in HCs (p = 0.007) and that EVs were significantly smaller in CFS/ME patients (p = 0.014). Circulating EVs could be an emerging tool for biomedical research in CFS/ME. These findings provide preliminary evidence that blood-derived EVs may distinguish CFS/ME patients from HCs.

Here is another study on EVs that is supposed to show a relative abundance difference in charged groups in the membrane, im just putting in is a quote from its abstract:

Our results show that routine creatine kinase (CK) blood values, plasma EVs physical characteristics (including counts, size and zeta-potential), and a limited number of differentially expressed PBMC and EV miRNAs appear significantly associated with severe ME/CFS (p < 0.05).


Then there is the study from Lipkin et al where they found lower levels of many phospholipids in the blood, particularly plasmalogens seems to be at very low levels. Have a look at the chart in this post. This seems like a very important finding in my view, here is what wikipedia says:

Although the functions of plasmalogens have not yet been fully elucidated, it has been demonstrated that they can protect mammalian cells against the damaging effects of reactive oxygen species.[8][9][10] In addition, they have been implicated as being signaling molecules and modulators of membrane dynamics.

Also there is this study that found association of worse health related to what lipids was found in the blood.


There are also indications that some patients may have low BH4. According to wiki BH4 is a cofactor for ether lipid oxidase. As mentioned above, plasmalogens are important members of cellular membranes, these are ether phospholipids and therefore possibly affected by low BH4 levels.

Me/cfs has also been associated with antiphospholipid syndrome, these lipids are important constituent of cellular membranes.

Further the recent poll on supplements revealed that a subset of pwme respond positively to carnitine. The most important job of carnitine is simply to transport actyl groups across one of the mitochondrial membranes. If mitochondrial membranes are compromised in a way that reduces the effectiveness of carnitine transporters in the mitochondrial membrane then its possible that increased concentration of carnitine could alleviate this effect. So again its possible to construct a membrane failure narrative for the carnitine signal.

The cellular membranes are the command center of the cell, they receive signals from everywhere that stimulate the extracellular receptors and thus cause changes to occur inside the cell. I imagine that dysfunctional membranes are leading to all sorts of cellular signaling failures. One speculation is that this type of signaling failure could be the cause of brain fog. A couple of examples include calcium signaling failure as researched by Staines & Gradisnik, or the Nf-Kb - redox - wnt/beta catenin signalling as reported by Maes, or the dysregulation of ephrin-eph signalling as reported by Hanson. I think these problems probably could cause a vicious cycle where the membranes are negatively affected leading to more signalling problems.

So thats the case i can make for membrane failure of cells and organelles as the cause of mecfs. Can be caused by alot of factors and therefore people with mecfs improve on very different sorts of treatments. Doesnt have to be e.g oxidative stress even if that would be a common way there. Anything that cause altered membrane composition in such a way that it becomes dysfunctional. E.g i imagine lack of certain lipids or just a dysregulation of lipid metabolism could affect what gets put into the membrane. The membrane is in constant flux, lipids coming and going all the time.

So if this theory holds up then there are probably lots of ways to end up with mecfs. Some autoimmune, some persistent virus etc.
 
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linusbert

Senior Member
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i like your work!
a theory of cfs should imho always take multiple different triggers into account which somehow lead to a broken energy metabolism - like yours.
how can we fix it?
 
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Messages
600
i like your work!
a theory of cfs should imho always take multiple different triggers into account which somehow lead to a broken energy metabolism.
how can we fix it?
Thanks!

If this theory is correct then people need different treatments i think, all depends on whats keeping your membranes from being in adequate shape. And thats sort of what we hear as well from pwme that recovered, they have a wide range of approaches from rituximab to circadian rythm interventions.
 

Wishful

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I agree that cell membranes may be involved in ME's root dysfunction. I've had different responses to specific fatty acids, which make up membranes. However, none of those responses fixed my overall ME symptoms; they just affected one or more probably downstream symptoms. I'll accept that membrane abnormalities may be part of the feedback loop of ME, but I'm not convinced that they're the critical factor.

Counter-evidence for this theory: there are plenty of food factors that affect membrane construction/maintenance, yet I don't think anyone has reported that any of those factors has successfully treated their ME. They might affect a symptom or two, but not the underlying mechanism of ME. If the theory is correct, then it should be fairly simple to come up with some tests for it (specific fatty acids or whatever).
 
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Counter-evidence for this theory: there are plenty of food factors that affect membrane construction/maintenance, yet I don't think anyone has reported that any of those factors has successfully treated their ME. They might affect a symptom or two, but not the underlying mechanism of ME. If the theory is correct, then it should be fairly simple to come up with some tests for it (specific fatty acids or whatever).
Well once the membranes are critically affected then theres going to be alot of aberrant signalling going on thats messing up membranes even more, causing oxidative stress, inflammation etc. So once you got mecfs it might be a vicious cycle that might not be easily broken by dietary changes. If the theory is correct of course. Its certainly speculative just like many other theories at this point.

It is a bit striking though that the two preliminary genetic results from 2022 i mentioned in the first post is both pointing at the cytoskeleton while so many other things are pointing at lipids from one angle or the other. The way i see it the meeting point between the lipid findings and the cytoskeleton is the membranes.
 

Murph

:)
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I find this theory attractive. Ever since Naviaux's metabolite study, it has been the lipids that show up deranged when science looks at metabolites. It fits neatly with a blood flow theory and with a cellular energy theory. (although perhaps that's because you can imagine just about anything going wrong once you imagine defective membranes!! theories are cheap, remember, data is gold.).

I also appreciate the cross-over with Ehlers Danlos, which presents somewhat similarly to MECFS and is defined as collagen disorder. A lot of those patients also have blood flow problems.
 
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LINE

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I had success with Lipid Replacement Therapy which consisted of primarily of phosphatidylcholine, Vitamin E, antioxidants and healthy fats. Improved my condition by 30% or so. (I have changed my perspective on treatments, I now use the 5% rule which is making small improvements adds up).

Economic cost and accessibility risk is/was favorable.

Lipid Replacement Therapy: A natural medicine approach to replacing damaged lipids in cellular membranes and organelles and restoring function - ScienceDirect
 
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linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
840
I had success with Lipid Replacement Therapy which consisted of primarily of phosphatidylcholine, Vitamin E, antioxidants and healthy fats. Improved my condition by 30% or so. (I have changed my perspective on treatments, I now use the 5% rule which is making small improvements adds up).

Economic cost and accessibility risk is/was favorable.

Lipid Replacement Therapy: A natural medicine approach to replacing damaged lipids in cellular membranes and organelles and restoring function - ScienceDirect

what supplements/things did you take for LRT?

i have a bit of anxiety regardings fats, especially PUFAs. i seam to take those PUFAs not so well. saturated fat and mono saturated is fine for me.
 
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LINE

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what supplements/things did you take for LRT?

i have a bit of anxiety regardings fats, especially PUFAs. i seam to take those PUFAs not so well. saturated fat and mono saturated is fine for me.

I listed the items above - phosphatidylcholine was originally from BodyBio which has good concentrations of PC then I switched over to a less concentrated form by NOW which is Sunflower Lecithin. I think I went through 2 bottles of BodyBio.

Vitamin E scavenges lipid peroxidation which means it neutralizes the oxidants that attack fats which should include the cell membrane. I also use a wide array of other antioxidants such as alpha lipoic acid, vitamin C etc.

I am not sure how you would tolerate these, 369 oil which is Omega 3, 6 and 9. I also seem to do well with wheat germ oil.

Lastly, some will suggest phosphatidylSerine which I think is more neurologically based, this product surprised me by helping with the brain fog. I use Doctors Best.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
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840
I listed the items above -
true, i did read that, i just formulated my question bad, i wanted to get more details, what products, what exact ingredients etc. did help you.
but gladly you clarified, thanks.

what do you mean by "healthy fats"?

i am desperate with vitamin E, it so often backfires for different reasons. one of the most is that i seam to be allergic to everything palmtree. sadly also to wheatgerm oil. there are actually very few oils i tolerate. this is weird, it seams like all plant oils are a problem right now. butter and animal fats are fine.
i finally found a fish liver oil i actually tolerate. was getting bad diarrhea and histamin issues previously from most fish/vegan omega3 oils - its 100% codfish. no blends.

i will checkout the bodybio pc.
 

Wishful

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it seams like all plant oils are a problem right now. butter and animal fats are fine.

Check the fatty acid contents of the ones you tolerate vs the ones you don't tolerate. One online source is: https://web.pdx.edu/~wamserc/C336S12/fat.pdf

Most fat sources have several acids in common, such as palmitic and linoleic. You might be able to figure out which specific ones are causing problems. It seemed that it was palmitic acid that caused me problems some years ago, which I solved by taking supplemental carnitine. That problem went away after a few months of supplements.
 

Wishful

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Location
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Well once the membranes are critically affected then theres going to be alot of aberrant signalling going on thats messing up membranes even more, causing oxidative stress, inflammation etc.

I mentally test this theory with the observations of rapid switching of state (full ME/full no-ME) triggered by three different chemicals (prednisone, cuminaldehyde, T2). Just a gut feel that these chemicals are more likely to alter the cytoskeleton than the membrane, but also more likely to alter other functions in cells.
 
Messages
600
I had success with Lipid Replacement Therapy which consisted of primarily of phosphatidylcholine, Vitamin E, antioxidants and healthy fats. Improved my condition by 30% or so. (I have changed my perspective on treatments, I now use the 5% rule which is making small improvements adds up).

Economic cost and accessibility risk is/was favorable.

Lipid Replacement Therapy: A natural medicine approach to replacing damaged lipids in cellular membranes and organelles and restoring function - ScienceDirect
Gonna buy some lipids i think:) Im eating 3 eggs per day attempting to get proper fats but seems like thats not enough since upper tolerable limit of PC is 3,5grams and one egg is like 120 mg or something.
 
Messages
600
I mentally test this theory with the observations of rapid switching of state (full ME/full no-ME) triggered by three different chemicals (prednisone, cuminaldehyde, T2). Just a gut feel that these chemicals are more likely to alter the cytoskeleton than the membrane, but also more likely to alter other functions in cells.
Very odd that you are able to switch in and out of ME sometimes, not very common i think.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
840
Check the fatty acid contents of the ones you tolerate vs the ones you don't tolerate. One online source is: https://web.pdx.edu/~wamserc/C336S12/fat.pdf

Most fat sources have several acids in common, such as palmitic and linoleic. You might be able to figure out which specific ones are causing problems. It seemed that it was palmitic acid that caused me problems some years ago, which I solved by taking supplemental carnitine. That problem went away after a few months of supplements.

thats great information, i can check now on a new level i didnt know existed before. thanks.

for olive oil and coconut oil its already triggering my insensitivities by just smelling it.
but also on topical and oral application. for olive oil its immediately and for coconut oil its triggering my asthma more and more over days.
probably 2 things could go on here, one nasty insensitivity/allergy and also the fatty acid composition you mention. especially the later one could explain why i get muscle problems with some fats and as well inappetence.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
840
Bought soy lecitin supplement today, contains all the good stuff.

which one you got?
(i also ordered the body bio pc, coming in probably 2 weeks)

can you please keep your experiences periodically posted how its working out for you? status a few weeks later.
i'd really interested if it works out.
 
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Messages
600
which one you got?

can you please keep your experiences periodically posted how its working out for you? status a few weeks later.
i'd really interested if it works out.
I bought two, but i dont think they sell internationally. One got phosphatidylcholine + phosphatidylethanolamine, and the other one got phosphatidylserine. Looks like the brand called "NOW" has lechitin products that cover at least the -choline and -serine parts.

edit: and yes i can post an update if this improves me at all. I dont have high expectations since few things tend to have an affect but worth a try.
 
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