Is electro-magnetic field (EMF) hypersensitivity a real thing?

[Wishful]

For those interested: https://arstechnica.com/science/201...ck-or-wi-fi-limits-to-protect-from-radiation/

No actual proof of anything regarding EMF sensitivity (hard to prove a negative), but maybe for some people it will counter some of the more common '5G will kill you, even though there's no actual proof' type of stories.

 

[percyval577]

They can be real, though I would not be really concerned for normal people.

The more I improve the more liabilities appear (eg computer sensitivity), obviously transitionally.


Having said both, I am not really interested in the following articel:
Effects of electromagnetic fields exposure on the antioxidant defense system

 

[Wolfcub]

It is bound to have some effect, I feel. But like many things, there will be some who are more susceptible to negative effects, and some for whom it won't make any difference really.

As we have electro-magnetic parts of our bodies/brains, I do feel that there has to be some influence however. But many will probably withstand it quite happily..... How it will affect the sensitive or chronically unwell people, I can't say. I don't think anyone knows yet.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Related discussion about electromagnetic hypersensitivity:

The Critical Importance of Molecular Biomarkers and Imaging in the Study of Electrohypersensitivity. A Scientific Consensus International Report (Belpomme et al., 2021)
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/electro-magnetic-radiation-sensitivity-is-real.85025/

 

[Pyrrhus]

A discussion from another thread:

In a broader sense, there are plenty of epidemiological studies over the years that have failed to find any strong correlation between electromagnetic fields and human disease. These studies have largely formed the basis for the prevailing opinion that electromagnetic fields are perfectly harmless.

However, consider:

• Researchers performing in vitro work have used electromagnetic fields to induce oxidative stress in living tissues, to study ion channels in cells, or merely to heat up tissues.
• People with no history of electromagnetic hypersensitivity have reported neurological disturbances after undergoing an MRI using the experimental 7T machines, which use electromagnetic fields that are much more powerful than current MRI machines.
• A friend of mine, who has never complained of electromagnetic hypersensitivity, went into a 3T MRI machine for a routine MRI, and had uncontrollable leg movements every time they switched on the machine.
• Some animal studies found a slight increase in tumors in some animals exposed to electromagnetic fields.

That is completely beyond the levels of EMF that people claim to be sensitive to. A gigawatt laser is "EMF", and causes harm to human flesh, but that doesn't mean that typical moonlight is going to crisp your flesh. I'm not sure how many orders of magnitude the 7T fields are higher than the fields from house wiring, but it's a huge difference. Magnitude does make a difference. Some physical effects will simply not occur below a certain threshold of power level.

Yes, when talking about the impact of electromagnetic radiation on human tissue, you must always specify which frequency and which power output you are talking about. These two variables will determine whether there is an effect, and if so, how large the effect will be.

For example, microwave ovens generate electromagnetic radiation that quickly burns flesh at the frequency of 2.450 GHz and a power output of 800W.

But a typical WiFi router can also generate electromagnetic radiation at the same frequency of 2.450 GHz, but with a power output of only 1W.

Actually, the legal limit seems to be 1/10ths of that: 100 mW. I'm not sure whether that's measured right at the antenna, or if it's the amplifier output, with the actual transmitted power being lower. The power level from a wifi unit in a house will be much lower at a distance, so while sitting at your computer, you would probably be exposed to several orders of magnitude less. I can't find a simple answer to 'what is the typical power level experienced in a house'. From my setup, I'm guessing that I'm exposed to somewhere around 10 nanowatts of wifi power. No, I'm not concerned about 10 nW, and I really don't believe that any human can reliably sense that level of EMF.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Another comment from a different thread:

I just had a quick look at this. EMF can activate voltage gated calcium channels in susceptible people and there is suggestion that taking a calcium channel blocker can help alleviate symptoms.
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep21774
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3780531/

 

[Dubitat]

EMF sensitivity is only "real" in the sense that it causes genuine suffering for those who are convinced they are suffering from it.

The topic isn't studied much because it's understood that the issue is not a physical matter. It's easy to demonstrate that someone's supposed EMF sensitivity matches to visual cues (seeing a WiFi router, seeing a cellular phone) but does not correlate to actual measured RF power.

Many people don't understand how electromagnetic radiation decays with distance. A WiFi router may emit 1 Watt of peak power during transmissions, but that power doesn't go directly into the body of someone nearby. If it did, there wouldn't be any power left for anyone to receive a signal on their phone, so this much is easy to prove. The amount of power reaching any one person minus the amount of power reflected away from their body would be measured in picowatts or less. A picowatt is 0.000000000001 Watts, which isn't enough power to do much of anything.

A common mistake is to confuse studies at different frequencies or power levels, or to confuse electromagnetic radiation with magnetic fields. For example, @Pyrrhus posted a study above showing that extremely powerful pulses at 50Hz and 1mT could cause observable effects in slices of animal brains. Such a study might be useful in the context of Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), but it's not relevant to something like using your cellular phone due to the different frequencies (differing by a factor of 100,000,000) and different types of field (electromagnetic waves compared to magnetic pulses).

To put it in perspective: The field strength used in that study was 1 mT. A typical refrigerator magnet, which can hold papers to a steel surface, is around 5mT. Your cellular phone and WiFi router certainly aren't coming anywhere near that strength in the B-field.

I could write all day about this (it overlaps with my academic background) but the unfortunate reality is that it probably doesn't matter much. Those who are convinced that they react to RF radiation sickness are not actually suffering from direct effects of electromagnetic radiation in the air. The types of reactions experienced by sufferers don't actually correlate to measured RF levels, but rather to the perception of the presence of RF generating devices.

 

[Dubitat]

Another comment from a different thread:

The high-power, low-frequency electromagnetic fields discussed in those studies are not comparable to the low-power, high-frequency signals emitted by cellular phones.

A more appropriate comparison would be rTMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) which uses powerful, localized electrical fields to elicit biological reactions in tissues. It's a common mistake to equate these high-powered magnetic fields with cellular phones and such, but they actually have very little in common.

The energy that comes out of a cellular phone is actually much closer to to visible light (which is also electromagnetic radiation) than to these extremely low frequency magnetic fields. It's a mistake to mix the two topics.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The topic isn't studied much because it's understood that the issue is not a physical matter. It's easy to demonstrate that someone's supposed EMF sensitivity matches to visual cues (seeing a WiFi router, seeing a cellular phone) but does not correlate to actual measured RF power.

that was never the case in my case.

The body when sufficiently weakened, can be more readily penetrated and you feel it penetrate.

 

[Wishful]

The body when sufficiently weakened, can be more readily penetrated and you feel it penetrate.

Can you provide data about how EMF penetration depends on the health of a body? I very much doubt it. It would be reasonably simple to test experimentally: measure the EMF passing through a body while administering something to induce 'illness' of some sort. I expect it would show no significant difference.

 

[hapl808]

I would say just because we can't measure something doesn't mean it isn't happening. Otherwise none of us would be here. But the corollary is also not true - just because we can't measure something effectively doesn't mean it IS happening. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Can you provide data about how EMF penetration depends on the health of a body? I very much doubt it. It would be reasonably simple to test experimentally: measure the EMF passing through a body while administering something to induce 'illness' of some sort. I expect it would show no significant difference.

this is my own personal experience, and there is no data. Perhaps this EMF I can hear and feel has no negative effects on the body whatsoever.

 

[Dubitat]

I would say just because we can't measure something doesn't mean it isn't happening. Otherwise none of us would be here. But the corollary is also not true - just because we can't measure something effectively doesn't mean it IS happening. Therein lies the problem.

In this case, we actually can measure both the electromagnetic radiation and the reported symptoms. There have been numerous studies on the topic but the outcome is always the same: Study participants claiming EHS report a lot of negative symptoms, but the symptoms are uncorrelated with the electromagnetic radiation. Researchers can place sham electromagnetic sources in the room with the patient (a fake WiFi router, for example) and the patients will begin to report worsening symptoms.

People who claim to suffer from EHS are indeed suffering real symptoms, but they are mistaken about the cause of those symptoms. Electromagnetic radiation cannot be "felt" or sensed at the levels present in household environments and numerous studies have confirmed this even in claimed EHS patients. Whatever the EHS patients are feeling is not coming from electromagnetic radiation.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Interesting papers quoted in another thread:

There are many papers that have shown nocebo effects. Here's just one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440612/

Here is another interesting paper, not on Ca though:

Effects of Oscilatory Electric Fields on Internal Membranes: An Analytical Model
Vajrala et al 2008

 

[Pyrrhus]

Here's a discussion that is perhaps only tangentially related, as it discusses how concentrated microwave radiation might induce a neurological disease not unlike ME:

Havana Syndrome: victims suffer symptoms much like ME
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/havana-syndrome-victims-suffer-symptoms-much-like-me.84239/

 

[chilove]

It definitely is. It happened to me. I suddenly started feeling horrible whenever I was using my laptop or cell phone or standing close to my big screen TV. I had no idea why for awhile. I had never even heard of it before. It took me awhile to figure it out. I finally googled "I think my computer is making me feel sick" and discovered it. When I started grounding myself and using shielding products and getting rid of Wifi I felt much better. After taking natural binders and Lion's mane mushroom and grounding for about 9 months I no longer had any symptoms from EMFs. That was about 6 years ago. I still avoid EMFs as much as possible because I know they aren't good for humans (or animals either). One of the things EMFs do is activate mast cells and I have MCAS so that may be why I developed EMF sensitivity.

 

[Wishful]

I suddenly started feeling horrible whenever I was using my laptop or cell phone or standing close to my big screen TV.

If the laptop was transmitting wifi, then it would have similar EMF emissions to the phone, but the TV screen would be quite different (much lower frequency).

 

[Rufous McKinney]

whatever it is, there is something going on with membranes and connective tissue which, when inflamed, is exacerbated by these EMF frequencies. that tissue is covered in Plus and minus charges. It really feels it somehow.

After I developed elbow bursistis (which went away yet didn't)...my elbows SCREAM in proximity to the laptop or phone.

My hands often do not want to hold the phone/ its bothering neurons in my hands.

 

[Dysfunkion]

whatever it is, there is something going on with membranes and connective tissue which, when inflamed, is exacerbated by these EMF frequencies. that tissue is covered in Plus and minus charges. It really feels it somehow.

After I developed elbow bursistis (which went away yet didn't)...my elbows SCREAM in proximity to the laptop or phone.

My hands often do not want to hold the phone/ its bothering neurons in my hands.

Yeah we need more research in this field because this is also what is keeping me so sick. I don't have an escape from it and there is no medical help for us. Protection is not cheap and sold in stores either. There is no public education on the dangers of wireless radiation so nothing is being done about the situation as it only gets worse. The people who are already chronically ill that get hit the hardest like some of us that can directly connect the dots between exposure and getting extremely ill aren't believed. I just did a read out on from my room here with the Electrosmart app and it is on the end of the spectrum of safe for even normal healthy people. One more strong wifi signal or 2 and it would be in the red. I can't just move either, I don't have infinite money and can only work part time. Currently just stuck here.

 

[Wishful]

Protection is not cheap and sold in stores either.

Aluminum foil is cheap and available in stores. Visit a dollar store, pick up some tape or glue while you're at it, and you can line a room with it, or cover some standing screens with it. Near 100% shielding for just a few dollars. Even a small piece of foil can block signals from a router or other signal source, when placed properly.