Interesting observation I made about muscle fatigue in my case (and possibly CFS in general)

[borko2100]

So basically, I noticed something interesting while using my bike. As some of you may know, if you ride a bike at a given speed, whether you are using a low gear or a high gear, if the speed does not change then you are expending the same amount of energy. What is interesting about this is how fatigue builds up. In the first case, i.e. low gear, you would be turning the pedals faster, but with less effort each turn, in this scenario your cardiovascular system and your lungs would fail first. Conversely, in the second case, i.e. high gear, you would be turning the pedals slower, but with more force, now your muscles would fail first instead.

Now coming back to CFS. There is obviously some kind of energy production impairment involved. Taking all of this into account, it would be reasonable to assume that if the energy impairment is strongest in the muscles, then using a low gear would allow you to travel longer (because there would be less stress on the muscles), if the impairment is strongest in the cardiovascular system then using a high gear would allow you to go further (because of less stress on the cardiovascular system).

Well in my case, I can go much further using a low gear. Eventually I get out of breath and have to stop of course, but I can go a reasonable distance. Using a high gear on the other hand, the speed being the same, my muscles get insanely fatigued, pumped up, painful, etc. and this happens very fast. So the distance I can travel is way lower compared to when using a low gear and furthermore the physical impairment is much worse, i.e. being out of breath vs. feeling like your muscles are completely destroyed. So what this tells me that, at least in my case, my muscles seem to be more affected by CFS than other systems.

I am not sure if this is very useful information. Nevertheless I think this shows that our muscles are really messed up, while other systems like the lungs and the heart (which is also a muscle I know) might not be affected as badly.

 

[hapl808]

Interesting. It's been many years since I was well enough to ride a bike, but that does sound like what I recall from back in those days.

 

[datadragon]

Thanks for sharing your experience. It has been found that there are differences in inflammation between intensive and light exercise where light exercise reduces inflammation while intensive exercise increases it instead. As intensive exercise can therefore pour additional fuel on the fire of inflammation and you are experiencing negative effects in what appears to be a current inflammatory state it suggests to reduce heavy exercise and be mindful of your inflammatory state and what else may be possibly increasing it until it comes down to not make things worse.

Exercise appears to have different effects on NLRP3 inflammasome (inflammation). In the case of chronic exercise with high intensity such as what occurs in many athletics/sports, a significant INCREASE in expression of gene, NLRP3 and serum levels of IL-1β, IL-18 cytokines were observed. Chronic exercise with light to moderate intensity such as walking however significantly reduced the expression of NLRP3 gene and subsequent serum levels of IL-1β, IL-18 cytokines. So there are differences in intensive vs light exercise with intensive pouring additional fuel on the fire of inflammation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6524053/

 

[Mary]

@borko2100 - very interesting observation - thanks for posting! I have a newly purchased (optimistic purchase) used recumbent exercise bike which I have been wanting to try out. Well I tried it once and promptly crashed the next day. And have been afraid to get back on it since. But I think I will try your method of low intensity, longer duration, exercise and see how I do.

 

[maple]

@borko2100 nice observations, which agree with my own. And hence, I got an electric bicycle. That way I don’t get overtired either way. I pedal when I can .

 

[triffid113]

Nevertheless I think this shows that our muscles are really messed up, while other systems like the lungs and the heart (which is also a muscle I know) might not be affected as badly.

Just a comment that there is no reason people can't have multiple things wrong. For instance I have genetic high blood pressure, so my cardiovascular was born stressed. When I used to bike, it was always in the gear that takes the most muscle, the least cardiovascular. But I never could go faster than my.muscles could handle..going faster, which is what causes the deleterious things (such as lowering testosterone in men) is caused by going all out...anaerobically. if you can breathe ok, you're doing it aerobically. If you go at a pace you can do for a long time, it's not gonna stress you and cause problems. As a biker, I learned it's 'pain, no gain'. it's when you push yourself beyond what your body can handle that you get problems. This probably muddied your analogy, sorry.

 

[forestglip]

Using a high gear on the other hand, the speed being the same, my muscles get insanely fatigued, pumped up, painful, etc. and this happens very fast.

To me this sounds like a normal human body. When we have to lift heavy weights, or ride at a high gear in this case, our muscles can do it, but only for short periods. On the other hand, the cardiovascular system is very good at working for long periods of time while expending relatively low force.

If it had been the other way around - you got more fatigued from low gear than high gear - that would be more surprising.

 

[Garz]

my PEM was super sensitive to aerobic exercise - from what i read this is very common

as an example - as part of my overall recovery plan i had always exercised - partly to get out in nature and partly because knew i would go down hill if i didn't do something at least mildly active - so i set about exploring what i could and couldn't do

initially i could only walk very slowly for 1mile a day - i was doing lots of other treatments and over time i was able to work up to walking 3 miles at a fast clip.

at this point i decided to try a short run - very short - like around 100yards - slightly up hill

bang! i got a strong PEM reaction lasting a few days

i found this curious and interesting - i could walk at a decent clip - as fast as most fast walkers walk - and even keep that pace up hill - but as soon as I ran and got fully out of breath - even for under a minute - bang! fatigue for days

later as i improved further i very gradually started training with weights - again here i found i could do all exercises that were strength based just fine - say 20 squats - or military presses - or push-ups

i had limited equipment at home so when i eventually increased the reps to 60 or more reps of squats and got fully out of breath and heart pumping v fast/ near maximum - PEM reactions' started again.

there is a UK doctor Sarah Myhill who has published some papers on the mitochondrial function of those with CFS
she maintains that the mitochondrial membrane is damaged ( with toxins, or from infections or from inflammation from other sources) and because of this the mitochondria are impaired and burn fuel with more free radical waste products than they should.

the antioxidants like glutathione etc that are supposed to mop up the free radicals become depleted - and so the free radicals cause more damage to the mitochondria and surprising cells in a feedback loop.

it makes sense that for people stuck in this condition - gentle low level exercise - like walking - might be manageable because the body can replenish the antioxidants to just about cope with the mildly raised demand without sending them over the edge.

but aerobic exercise is by definition higher demand for and extended period - at least long enough to get out of breath - and this overwhelms the antioxidant system.

whereas short bursts of anaerobic exercise are also tolerable - as there are frequent rests between brief exertions - so again antioxidants can be replenished.

interestingly - my fatigue - improved significantly when i switched to eating a ketogenic diet - Myhill writes about this also - apparently ketones burn cleaner - producing less free radicals and with less demand on the antioxidant system - antioxidant status and mitochondrial function then improve significantly.

for me this all seemed to fit together - and while she couldn't help me understand what caused my fatigue in the first place - some of her work was helpful in managing it till i could find the cause

this is one of the papers
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3403556/