• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Insomnia from Methylation Protocol???

topaz

Senior Member
Messages
149
Hi

Since starting on the Active Methylation Protocol with all co-factors and basics, I now awake around 4am, usually accompanied by a trip to the bathroom. I didnt precisely note when this started but it would be around some two weeks now.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I discontinued all supplements a couple of days ago with the intent of restarting again, maybe at a lower dose of Mb12 and introducing some one at a time.

This early waking is not helping the deep sadness/depression and brain fog that the methylation protocol appears to have brought with it.

Thank you
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi

Since starting on the Active Methylation Protocol with all co-factors and basics, I now awake around 4am, usually accompanied by a trip to the bathroom. I didnt precisely note when this started but it would be around some two weeks now.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I discontinued all supplements a couple of days ago with the intent of restarting again, maybe at a lower dose of Mb12 and introducing some one at a time.

This early waking is not helping the deep sadness/depression and brain fog that the methylation protocol appears to have brought with it.

Thank you

Hi Topaz,

A question for you. Did you have depression before you started a methylation program? Precisely how much of what are you taking?. Waking up at about 4 am for a bathroom trip dosen't seem unusual to me. That is how it has been my whole life.

Brain fog, depression and deep sadness are not usual results of methylation. Again, what Items are you taking and let's work through this. The one thing you can be sure of is that with starting of methylation there will be shifting around of all sorts of things.
 

topaz

Senior Member
Messages
149
Hi Freddd

No, I dont believe that I was depressed before I started (or if so, nothing comparable to now). Brain fog has been a constant, but worse now. Now, very teary, sad, depressed, brain fog and tired. Not helped by waking at 4am or so for the last two weeks (and not being able to fall asleep again). Maddietodd said she had similar symptoms that were abated with potassium. I have had no potassium deficiency symptoms other than the above potentially (??) and I had potassium tested on Monday and its 4.2 (4.4 a month ago and 4.6 a year ago). i tried increasing my potassium with about 6 bannanas and felt good the next day but it must have been placebo as that did not last beyond that one day.

Here are the supplements I take (I stopped all supplements on Tues and stopped methylation yesterday with a view of resuming tomorrow at a very low dose of Mb12).

Post #23 http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?16127-Why-arenDeplin&p=240423#post240423

I think I really need to do a methylation pathways test but its a lot more difficult to arrange from Australia.

Deep thanks
 

topaz

Senior Member
Messages
149
I have had some 4:30 or 5:00 am waking, though not really remembering dreams.

Hi Rosebud

how long have you had this waking and how long on have you been on methylation?

I read a while ago, in several sources, that not able to recall your dreams is a B6 deficiency and when you take supplements you start to recall your dreams. Ive been supplementing with about 70 mcg of P5P plus what is in the B complex and I still have no recall [I didnt start supplementing with p5p to try to get dream recall, but to support methylation but I was hoping to have dream recall as a side effect!].
 

chilove

Senior Member
Messages
365
Topaz, I get a definite lowering of mood when I'm low in potassium.. I wouldn't call it depression exactly.. but its definitely the blues and a very distinct feeling now that I recognize it.. I also get a lowering of physical energy
 

greenshots

Senior Member
Messages
399
Location
California
i almost always become depressed, irritable, and lethargic with an addition or increase in methyl groups and I know of MANY others who do as well so you aren't alone here. I would suggest usng very low doses and gradually go up. When I started mehyl B 12, I used a tiny dose (1drop in an entire bottle of adenosyl B 12 drops) and began just 1 drop of this! It has been slow going but I don't get so sick or miserable.

Good luck!
Angela
 

topaz

Senior Member
Messages
149
Thanks Angela

How long do these symptoms take to pass? Do they recur for you each time you increase methyl groups?

Thank you
 

greenshots

Senior Member
Messages
399
Location
California
usually 1-2 weeks but it really depends on how much I go up on the dose and whether or not I add in others or increase any others around the same time. I take great care to avoid adding in two methyl groups at the same time, whether they're new or I'm just increasing them (& below is a list of them to help with that). But I also notice that even increasing a methyl group with something else that's likely to increase my start-up symptoms, like a whole capsule of vit K, will lead to just enough detox and start up to wire me or make me feel like crud.

My doctor advised me on some things that really made alotta sense and saved me alotta money in the end. Her feeling was, why take a whole capsule of most things if you may not need it? And why not add it in slower just to allow your body time to adjust so that you won't have these annoying symptoms? Example, I had a bunch of issues when I started vit K but since it was a typical, ordinary vitamin, I didn't even recognize that my sudden exhaustion and irritabiliy (right after starting it), were related. I blamed it on a bug, even though the symptoms stopped when I was so tired that I forgot to take it again the next day but then they started right back up on the next day when I did remember. It never occurred to me to poke a hole in the gel cap with a tack or pin and squeeze a small blob onto some food! But I do this now routinely and by doing so, I gradually moved up to a bigger blob without needing an entire cap and saving money (Life extensions brand is one of the best but $1 each and as we all know, these really can add up. So I take bigger blobs when I'm on my cycle and smaller blobs in between and tolerate it just fine either way, even if I get lazy on a trip and take a whole one, but I don't need to buy a bottle every single month, more like every 3-4 months.

So I do this with many things but especially anything likely to "detox" me. Now, I rarely have disabling startup symptoms and believe it or not, I do feel these teensy doses as I go up. And, whenever I feel lazy and take too much of one of these, I usually regret it. It might take longer to do things this way but I hate feeling lousy! Also, I really watch my times on these increases so that I won't take any methyl B12 after 3pm since it tends to wire me.

Methyl donors:
SAMe
CoQ10/Ubiquinol
methyl THF, Methyl B 12
Curcumin
P5P
Some types of carnitine (Not fumarate version)
NADH
TMG & DMG
Melatonin (but its actually calming in those not COMT +|+
threonine
Phosphatidylserine isn't techically a methyl donor but can act as one
caffeine
drugs like Ritalin, Adderall, & other ADHD drugs (thats why they work so well)

And there are probably others but this is all I can think of right now.

But anytime you get the mitochondria/Kreb cycle moving you can usually expect more start up, too. Maybe it won't be bad or anything but you'll probably notice something.
I believe the theories about methylation and other biochemistry cycle start up that goes something like this "if you're not feeling anything, its probably not doing much for you but when you feel a bit lousy, you know its working.". The key part of this phrase being "a bit" rather than feeling God awful and just trying to push through it.

anyway, hope this helps!

Angela







Thanks Angela

How long do these symptoms take to pass? Do they recur for you each time you increase methyl groups?

Thank you