Diet is what took me from bed bound to working and being functional. I think we may all have different triggers so it may not be relevant for all. With fatigue being the most significant symptom and diet being our source of energy it makes sense that the fuel we put in our body will impact our energy levels. Stress is a big trigger for me some a low stress life would also help.
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In defence of diet and lifestyle
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
GreenEdge
Senior Member
- Messages
- 604
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
Paul Saladino MD On Food Truths,
The Carnivore Diet, & What Processed Foods Do To Our Guts
The Carnivore Diet, & What Processed Foods Do To Our Guts
GreenEdge
Senior Member
- Messages
- 604
- Location
- Brisbane, Australia
The origins of the anti-meat message with Dr. Gary Fettke — Diet Doctor Podcast
I'd expect similar results for ME/CFS across all types of diets "The MIND diet didn't help the mind" https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2302368?query=featured_home
hmnr asg
Senior Member
- Messages
- 563
It's very sad what has happened to this forum. It used to be a place where interesting topics and interventions were being tested by us and discussed. Now whenever I come here it just disappoints me.
OP is just stating the same ideas that we have been getting from ignorant doctors and people who have been gaslighting us, (i.e., diet/lifestyle) but sprinkling some logical fallacies to make it seem plausible and put the blame on us for being close minded.
Notice the defense he provided for the four arguments he has been getting. Every one of his defenses would work if you replaced "diet/lifestyle" with the most random idea.
Allow me to illustrate:
"in defense of *clapping your hands in the morning* as a treatment for CFS":
1) There is no symmetry whatsoever here between the seriousness of the disease and the apparent triviality of the cure (so, clapping could be a cure)
2) this one is just his own take on CFS, we don't know if CFS is a metabolic disorder. Also: "What looks like a simple clapping your hands, in retrospect will be found only by extremely hard science." (it increases blood flow to your extremities, a lot of complex things are involved in this movement)
3) The fact that clapping your hands for mecfs isn't widely discussed can suggest clapping your hands is not of any help. But It might equally suggests the right approach is probably something a bit unusual (like clapping your hands while you chant Mamma Mia! )
4) I think we call that a lifestyle change and so anyone claiming lifestyle changes have no chance of helping us is, I think, crazy (clapping your hands every morning is also a lifestyle change, so if pacing works and its a lifestyle change, one mustn't be so quick to dismiss clapping)
Don't you think the easiest interventions are attempted first? I dont know of any cfs patient who didnt try different diets (or lifestyle changes) in the first few years of their illness. And that's not necessarily because they thought it could be a cure, but they thought maybe eliminating something that they could be intolerant to or improving their overall diet could slightly improve their symptoms. If this had any benefits above and beyond just the basic health improvements of a good diet or eliminating food intolerance, don't you think we would have known by now ? (same goes with whatever lifestyle changes you're thinking of).
I'm sure op is going to now come in and say "this fella just proved my point". So, he trivializes this awful illness by suggesting the same treatment that cfs-ignorant doctors have been pushing down our throats forever (that we would have tried anyways, without success for the most part), gets attacked on twitter by frustrated patients, come here and bemoans the cruelty of the CFS community and our lack of open mindedness. I come in and try to explain why he is wrong, and now he can just say "aha! I was right! they are a close minded bunch". He has built a logical fortress around his argument. Michael Sharpe and Simon Wessely would be proud of you!
Many of us are so sick for so many years, so many of us have lost decades of our lives, and now the level of the discussion on this forum (which used to be the frontier of CFS conversations and news) is including videos from an imbecile like Paul Saladino and trying to go back to diet and lifestyle as a plausible option? havnt we been down this road before so, so many times?
Note: Just to clarify, I dont think anyone is against diet and lifestyle change, but just not as a treatment or cure for CFS. I never said these can't help, they can also help someone with cancer or any other illness. I have tried carnivore diet and it improves my energy by around 5%. Your CFS could be due to (or worsened by) a food sensitivity, so you have to try different diets. Lifestyle changes are essential, like reducing stress etc. Nobody is saying these are bad ideas, but what he is saying is an entirely different story.
Edit: I will soon be sharing The Clap Cure™. I will be offering a real training program for CFS patients (only 99$ a month). Big pharma has been lying to us for so long and we can't trust academic researches. By adopting my training program (The Clap Cure™) you will release the suppressed Trauma that has been causing your CFS. This new Energetic Retraining Brain Plasticity Method™ uses your own body's resources to rewire the neural pathways that have gone awry due to suppressed Trauma and anger. By Clapping daily while chanting you will refocus your attention from your CFS to well-being. You have tried the evil western medicine, isn't it time you try something that actually works? please send me your moneyZ! (bitcoin accepted)
OP is just stating the same ideas that we have been getting from ignorant doctors and people who have been gaslighting us, (i.e., diet/lifestyle) but sprinkling some logical fallacies to make it seem plausible and put the blame on us for being close minded.
Notice the defense he provided for the four arguments he has been getting. Every one of his defenses would work if you replaced "diet/lifestyle" with the most random idea.
Allow me to illustrate:
"in defense of *clapping your hands in the morning* as a treatment for CFS":
1) There is no symmetry whatsoever here between the seriousness of the disease and the apparent triviality of the cure (so, clapping could be a cure)
2) this one is just his own take on CFS, we don't know if CFS is a metabolic disorder. Also: "What looks like a simple clapping your hands, in retrospect will be found only by extremely hard science." (it increases blood flow to your extremities, a lot of complex things are involved in this movement)
3) The fact that clapping your hands for mecfs isn't widely discussed can suggest clapping your hands is not of any help. But It might equally suggests the right approach is probably something a bit unusual (like clapping your hands while you chant Mamma Mia! )
4) I think we call that a lifestyle change and so anyone claiming lifestyle changes have no chance of helping us is, I think, crazy (clapping your hands every morning is also a lifestyle change, so if pacing works and its a lifestyle change, one mustn't be so quick to dismiss clapping)
Don't you think the easiest interventions are attempted first? I dont know of any cfs patient who didnt try different diets (or lifestyle changes) in the first few years of their illness. And that's not necessarily because they thought it could be a cure, but they thought maybe eliminating something that they could be intolerant to or improving their overall diet could slightly improve their symptoms. If this had any benefits above and beyond just the basic health improvements of a good diet or eliminating food intolerance, don't you think we would have known by now ? (same goes with whatever lifestyle changes you're thinking of).
I'm sure op is going to now come in and say "this fella just proved my point". So, he trivializes this awful illness by suggesting the same treatment that cfs-ignorant doctors have been pushing down our throats forever (that we would have tried anyways, without success for the most part), gets attacked on twitter by frustrated patients, come here and bemoans the cruelty of the CFS community and our lack of open mindedness. I come in and try to explain why he is wrong, and now he can just say "aha! I was right! they are a close minded bunch". He has built a logical fortress around his argument. Michael Sharpe and Simon Wessely would be proud of you!
Many of us are so sick for so many years, so many of us have lost decades of our lives, and now the level of the discussion on this forum (which used to be the frontier of CFS conversations and news) is including videos from an imbecile like Paul Saladino and trying to go back to diet and lifestyle as a plausible option? havnt we been down this road before so, so many times?
Note: Just to clarify, I dont think anyone is against diet and lifestyle change, but just not as a treatment or cure for CFS. I never said these can't help, they can also help someone with cancer or any other illness. I have tried carnivore diet and it improves my energy by around 5%. Your CFS could be due to (or worsened by) a food sensitivity, so you have to try different diets. Lifestyle changes are essential, like reducing stress etc. Nobody is saying these are bad ideas, but what he is saying is an entirely different story.
Edit: I will soon be sharing The Clap Cure™. I will be offering a real training program for CFS patients (only 99$ a month). Big pharma has been lying to us for so long and we can't trust academic researches. By adopting my training program (The Clap Cure™) you will release the suppressed Trauma that has been causing your CFS. This new Energetic Retraining Brain Plasticity Method™ uses your own body's resources to rewire the neural pathways that have gone awry due to suppressed Trauma and anger. By Clapping daily while chanting you will refocus your attention from your CFS to well-being. You have tried the evil western medicine, isn't it time you try something that actually works? please send me your moneyZ! (bitcoin accepted)
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And aren't projects like Remissionbiome continuously going down this road, perpetuating the idea that we just haven't tried the right diet hard enough or that we should have layered that new supplement or fancy new pseudo-intervention on top of it?
hmnr asg
Senior Member
- Messages
- 563
“Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It.”
Not only is this useless, its also harmful. It sends patients down roads that we know dont work and waste so much of their money and time. Also if it gets traction it just become the "cure du jour" and takes time and energy and attention away from patients and researchers from trying something new that could be actually useful.
Well nothing is more disappointing than ridiculing others.
One of my biggest remissions were thanks to changing my diet.
hmnr asg
Senior Member
- Messages
- 563
I was trying to illustrate the absurdity of their arguments with a thought experiment. My goal wasn't to ridicule. I'm genuinely sorry if I came across rude, I have been sick 14 years and I'm just tired of these types of posts.
Ps the fact that you achieved remission with diet doesn't invalidate my point. I said that I am totally onboard with diet and lifestyle changes and people can achieve varying level of success with diet and lifestyle changes and it should be the first thing anyone tries.
Ps I will not engage further due to limited energy. Folks can judge my post as they wish and can agree or disagree. It's the whole point of a discussion forum. Feel free to tear my post apart and disagree, it's totally welcomed to create a robust discussion around this. But unfortunately I will not comment further (because I really can't , not that I don't want to).
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Ridiculing is still ridiculing and using offensive language is against forum rules. Let's not do this to ourselves what big pharma and doctors do to us. This forum is good because it is still a civilized place so let's keep it this way.
Tearing posts apart and attacking others is not about what this forum is. It would not be a robust discussion, only a waste of energy and time.