Impressive results from using GABA-B agonists. Why is this?

[SmokinJoeFraz93]

I finally decided to try pharmaceutical drugs after learning the hard way that supps like valerian and theanine alone weren’t going to sort out this ridiculously hyperexcited brain of mine.

I’m intrigued as to why I improve with GABA binding substances. I’m taking fairly low doses a handful time’s a week to avoid tolerance and withdrawal issues, but I would like to investigate this GABA issue more thoroughly, as I feel I need some sort of strong intervention daily, not just 3 days a week (preferably not pharmaceuticals).

- I call GABA the ‘Zen neurotransmitter’. An entire life of worrying over worthless shit is balanced by GABA. I can observe my thoughts and realise that they don’t hold the reality that they would if my brain was in a more excited state.

I can go from feeling profound loneliness and feeling a sense of ‘being lost’ to feeling balanced, excited for the future and I don’t feel this horrible fear that I need people on my life because of the belief that I can’t do it alone.

- When my brain is more ‘GABA balanced’, I don’t need my wheelchair. My knee pain and knee fatigue becomes dramatically reduced. My muscle have a little more energy, with recovery time from exertion reduced to the point where I can exert (and even go out doing things) daily.

- My brain feels more calmer in terms of thought processing. Normally, a thought about doing a task or something of that nature will bring on a physical response in my body. It’s like my brain doesn’t want to do anything, but when under the influence of GABA binding substances, my brain and body doesn’t react much to my thought processes.

- Severe sensory processing issues are reduced (only until the drug’s effects have worn off). I spent over a year in silence because my brain couldn’t tolerate hardly any sound, light or smell. (I now know that norepinephrine is involved here somewhere, as norepinephrine binding substances make these symptoms a whole lot worse.)

Substances used:

Phenibut 250mg - (titrated to 1 gram, but was disappointed by the higher doses).

Baclofen 50mg - (My favourite drug in terms of GABA-B agonism. Effects that last most of the day.

Can anyone suggest as to why I benefit from GABA binding substances?

Thanks.

 

[LINE]

GABA vs Glutamate. Glutamate and GABA compete in the neuron, glutamate is stimulating, obviously, GABA is calming. Glutamate production ramps up under stress which includes immune system activation. High glutamate stifles GABA leaving one in a hyper aroused state.

I found the key is to put GABA under the tongue and let it sit there. Magic stuff. Also Vitamin B6 and magnesium work with GABA. I use magnesium glycinate/lysinate.

 

[uglevod]

Baclofen seems to downregulate your systemic inflammation by attenuating signaling through TLR4(endotoxin) pathway:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516894/

 

[Chrisjr19]

I accidentally stumbled on to the same thing after taking a Zopiclone sleeping tablet one night a couple of months ago. After researching I found that it was a GABBA receptor agonist and then tried diazepam which is also supposed to have the same effect. This also worked but the dose was too low (I only had 2mg tablets and a limited supply).

It’s truly bizarre, all of my muscles relax and pain improves, I feel calm, hungry and energetic.

The only problem is Zopiclone is addictive and for short term use so I can’t use that repeatedly. I do keep some handy for emergency use though.

I started taking a GABA supplement but it didn’t seem to have any effect. I read that it may not pass the blood/brain barrier when taken orally though (this seems to be a subject of debate).

Good to know about Baclofen, I’ll ask the doctor when I’m next in!

 

[Chrisjr19]

GABA vs Glutamate. Glutamate and GABA compete in the neuron, glutamate is stimulating, obviously, GABA is calming. Glutamate production ramps up under stress which includes immune system activation. High glutamate stifles GABA leaving one in a hyper aroused state.

I found the key is to put GABA under the tongue and let it sit there. Magic stuff. Also Vitamin B6 and magnesium work with GABA. I use magnesium glycinate/lysinate.

Ive just tried the under the tongue trick now to see if it works for me (I’ve just opened a capsule and poured it under my tongue, guessing this is ok? )

@SmokinJoeFraz93 I’ll let you know if this trick works.

P.S. I’ve also read that Vitamin B6 and Magnesium are needed so worth a try supplementing with those. I’ve noticed a effervescent b vitamin drink definitely helps

I’d read about the overproduction of Glutamate too after researching this topic (had forgotten until I saw this reply). In my case that would make sense because I’d had years of being constantly stressed before this all kicked off.

How did your CFS come on, was it a viral start or a slow developer?

 

[Chrisjr19]

Just found this which is very interesting reading: https://www.jacobsladdercenter.com/doc/research/other/How-to-Increase-GABA-and-Balance-Glutamate.pdf

 

[LINE]

Ive just tried the under the tongue trick now to see if it works for me (I’ve just opened a capsule and poured it under my tongue, guessing this is ok? )

I have used 2 versions
1/ Source Naturals Serene Science GABA Calm 125mg Lozenges
2/ Source Naturals Serene Science GABA 750 mg Calm Mind

#1 is a lozenge and has some additional things in it (glycine etc), worked for me within 30m to 1H, took 1 or 2 lozenges and obviously let it sit under the tongue.

#2 is just GABA, I open the cap and pour 1/2 of the contents under tongue and dissolve.

((I take these before sleep which helps. I do notice that if I have an immune event (Mast cell activation) then an anti-histamine will fix the insomnia issue. ))

How did your CFS come on, was it a viral start or a slow developer? I presume you are asking me. Multiple levels, I finally was pushed over the edge by a parasitic infection, preceded by chronic stress, viral issues etc.

 

[Chrisjr19]

@SmokinJoeFraz93 well I tried 2 capsules poured under the tongue yd and 1 this morning and it definitely made a difference, within minutes I felt more relaxed, didn’t seem to last that long but hoping it’s a cumulative effect.

That article I shared is a long read but the salient points seemed to be:

1. Relaxtion techniques to get the balance back under control by reducing anxiety and stress.
2. Can take GABBA supplements but it stresses that the balance needs to be right in the body or it will just be converted into Glutamate/not used.
3. Avoid certain foods which can cause the release of excess levels of Glutamate (like MSG, Aspartame, etc).
   

 

[Chrisjr19]

Ive just tried the under the tongue trick now to see if it works for me (I’ve just opened a capsule and poured it under my tongue, guessing this is ok? )

I have used 2 versions
1/ Source Naturals Serene Science GABA Calm 125mg Lozenges
2/ Source Naturals Serene Science GABA 750 mg Calm Mind

#1 is a lozenge and has some additional things in it (glycine etc), worked for me within 30m to 1H, took 1 or 2 lozenges and obviously let it sit under the tongue.

#2 is just GABA, I open the cap and pour 1/2 of the contents under tongue and dissolve.

((I take these before sleep which helps. I do notice that if I have an immune event (Mast cell activation) then an anti-histamine will fix the insomnia issue. ))

How did your CFS come on, was it a viral start or a slow developer? I presume you are asking me. Multiple levels, I finally was pushed over the edge by a parasitic infection, preceded by chronic stress, viral issues etc.

This may sound silly, but do you swallow whatever’s left in your mouth after leaving it sat under your tongue for a bit? It seemed to upset my stomach doing that yd.

I was asking @SmokinJoeFraz93 about the onset, but didn’t make it very clear sorry (interested to hear yours of course too). Mine was similar to yours, viruses over the years (like bad glandular fever) and a 2nd bout of shingles and chronic stress seemed to push things over the edge in the end.

I’ve been wondering the whole time whether my pancreas has been having trouble because of pain in that area and digestive problems. I had a CT scan done though and have been having ultrasounds done every 6 months privately to keep an eye on it and it’s been fine so far but I tend to have slightly high levels of Amylase when tested which is weird.

Just read in that article I shared that the pancreas actually produces the GAD enzyme which is needed for Glutamate to be converted to GABBA and a damaged pancreas can’t produce it in high enough levels, so that’s set me off worrying again

 

[PatJ]

Can take GABA supplements but it stresses that the balance needs to be right in the body or it will just be converted into Glutamate/not used.

That happened to me when I tried GABA for sleep. I felt calm at first but then became agitated and irritable. Presumably the dose was too high and lead to excess glutamate.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

After researching I found that it was a GABBA receptor agonist and then tried diazepam which is also supposed to have the same effect. This also worked but the dose was too low (I only had 2mg tablets and a limited supply).

It’s truly bizarre, all of my muscles relax and pain improves, I feel calm, hungry and energetic.

Diazepam is the generic form of Valium, which is a noted muscle relaxant.

The only problem is Zopiclone is addictive and for short term use so I can’t use that repeatedly. I do keep some handy for emergency use though.

So is Diazepam, possibly even more so, depending on your system.

I started taking a GABA supplement but it didn’t seem to have any effect. I read that it may not pass the blood/brain barrier when taken orally though (this seems to be a subject of debate).

While it doesnt cross the BBB, there are GABA receptors all over your body, tho in lesser numbers and concentration. They're in your lungs, stomach, intestines, and other areas I cant recall right now. SOme people react well to oral GABA, while others feel no response or effect at all. Again, it all depends on your particular system.

Anything that uses your GABAa receptors runs the risk of down-regulating them, which is where you run into considerable difficulties down the road. Oral GABA doesnt seem to have a dramatic effect on the down-regulation issue.

 

[LINE]

This may sound silly, but do you swallow whatever’s left in your mouth after leaving it sat under your tongue for a bit? It seemed to upset my stomach doing that yd.

I was asking @SmokinJoeFraz93 about the onset, but didn’t make it very clear sorry (interested to hear yours of course too). Mine was similar to yours, viruses over the years (like bad glandular fever) and a 2nd bout of shingles and chronic stress seemed to push things over the edge in the end.

I’ve been wondering the whole time whether my pancreas has been having trouble because of pain in that area and digestive problems. I had a CT scan done though and have been having ultrasounds done every 6 months privately to keep an eye on it and it’s been fine so far but I tend to have slightly high levels of Amylase when tested which is weird.

Just read in that article I shared that the pancreas actually produces the GAD enzyme which is needed for Glutamate to be converted to GABBA and a damaged pancreas can’t produce it in high enough levels, so that’s set me off worrying again

Usually it just dissolves so really no residue. As a side note, I use a wide array of nutritionals which have been an integral part of my balance, this includes the full spectrum of B vitamins.

Here is a quote from a PubMed article on the role of B vitamins, this references B6

2.1.5. Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine, Pyridoxal, Pyridoxamine)
Beyond its role as a necessary cofactor in the folate cycle (see above and folate section below), the role of vitamin B6 in amino acid metabolism makes it a rate limiting cofactor in the synthesis of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, serotonin, γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), noradrenaline and the hormone melatonin. The synthesis of these neurotransmitters is differentially sensitive to vitamin B6 levels, with even mild deficiency resulting in preferential down-regulation of GABA and serotonin synthesis, leading to the removal of inhibition of neural activity by GABA and disordered sleep, behaviour...and a loss of hypothalamus-pituitary control of hormone excretion.

another snippet in regards to the full spectrum of B vitamins e.g. not neglecting the other members of the family:

...human epidemiological and controlled trial investigations, and the resultant scientific commentary, have focused almost exclusively on the small sub-set of vitamins (Folic Acid/B12/B6) that are the most prominent (but not the exclusive) B-vitamins involved in homocysteine metabolism. Scant regard has been paid to the other B vitamins. This review describes the closely inter-related functions of the eight B-vitamins and marshals evidence suggesting that adequate levels of all members of this group of micronutrients are essential for optimal physiological and neurological functioning.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772032/

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Just a word of caution: I suddenly became extremely reactive to B vits, especially p-5-p, but really, just all of them, after a lifetime of supplementing them with absolutely no ill-effects.

After joining PR, I discovered that for whatever reason, quite a few of us here have the same issue.

So follow the Golden Standard rule: start low, go slow, and monitor your reactions.

On a happier note. after several years of deprivation, B-wise, I've gotten to the point of being able to tolerate the amounts in my multi without any apparent distress. So if you are reactive right now, just remember, it isnt forever.

 

[Cipher]

Phenibut 250mg - (titrated to 1 gram, but was disappointed by the higher doses).

Watch out for tolerance against phenibut, it's highly addictive and you can quickly become dependent on it. I would suggest you try Kava root, there is a thread about it. It has a reverse-tolerance effect on GABA receptors in the brain, which is the opposite compared to phenibut and most other GABA increasing substances.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Watch out for tolerance against phenibut, it's highly addictive and you can quickly become dependent on it.

Based on everything I;ve read, I second this vociferously. Phenibut is highly addictive, and you can fall into tolerance withdrawal in a matter of days if you're unlucky. It's a dicey drug invented by the Russians in the 60;s, who claimed that it's what kept astronauts in tip top shape and able to work thru the problems that arise in space.

I would suggest you try Kava root, there is a thread about it. It has a reverse-tolerance effect on GABA receptors in the brain, which is the opposite compared to phenibut and most other GABA increasing substances.

And another dismal warning. Well, two.

First, the argument that Kava helps to heal down-regulated GABAa receptors has never been proven and has been contested by a lot of people. Not sure who to listen to on this, but until I am, I'm staying away.

Second, if you're going to try kava, KNOW YOUR SOURCE OF SUPPLY !!! Research your options carefully, and when you've winnowed them down to just a few, investigate those carefully again. 'Dirty' kava, that hasn't been properly selected, picked or cleaned contains substances that will kill your liver faster than you can say, "Oh shite ....."

It would be so great if there were something safe and healing out there for these problems, but if there is, I havent found it yet, and it doesn't seem that anyone else has, either.

@Cipher is absolutely right about the phenibut. Approach with extreme caution !!!

 

[Cipher]

First, the argument that Kava helps to heal down-regulated GABAa receptors has never been proven and has been contested by a lot of people. Not sure who to listen to on this, but until I am, I'm staying away.

There are no human studies measuring GABA-A receptor up/down-regulation of kava, but there are at least one rat study demonstrating this. There are however several human studies showing 1. an anxiolytic effect 2. no addictive properties (no tolerance, dependence or withdrawal-symptoms):

- 2013 study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23348842

Abstract

Presently, little is known about a number issues concerning kava (Piper methysticum), including (i) whether kava has any withdrawal or addictive effects; (ii) if genetic polymorphisms of the cytochrome (CYP) P450 2D6 liver enzyme moderates any potential adverse effects; and (iii) if medicinal application of kava has any negative or beneficial effect on sexual function and experience. The study design was a 6-week, double-blind, randomized controlled trial (n = 75) involving chronic administration of kava (one tablet of kava twice per day; 120 mg of kavalactones per day, titrated in non-response to two tablets of kava twice per day; 240 mg of kavalactones) or placebo for participants with generalized anxiety disorder. Results showed no significant differences across groups for liver function tests, nor were there any significant adverse reactions that could be attributed to kava. No differences in withdrawal or addiction were found between groups. Interesting, kava significantly increased female's sexual drive compared to placebo (p = 0.040) on a sub-domain of the Arizona Sexual Experience Scale (ASEX), with no negative effects seen in males. Further, it was found that there was a highly significant correlation between ASEX reduction (improved sexual function and performance) and anxiety reduction in the whole sample.

- 2004 study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15162364

Abstract

In several clinical trials, mainly conducted with a dose of 300 mg kava extract per day, kava has been employed successfully for the treatment of anxiety disorders. The goal of the placebo-controlled double-blind outpatient trial was to obtain more information on the dosage range and efficacy of a kava special extract WS 1490 in patients with non-psychotic anxiety. 50 patients were treated with a daily dose of 3 x 50 mg WS 1490 during a 4-week treatment period followed by a 2-week safety observation phase. In the active treatment group, the total score of the Hamilton anxiety scale (primary efficacy variable), showed a therapeutically relevant reduction in anxiety versus placebo (more than 4 points). In the secondary variables studied, HAMA 'somatic and psychic anxiety' subscales, the Erlangen anxiety, tension and aggression scale (EAAS), the brief personality structure scale (KEPS), the adjective checklist (EWL 60-S) and clinical global impressions scale (CGI), a trend in favour of the active treatment was detectable. WS 1490 was well tolerated and showed a safety profile with no drug-related adverse events or post-study withdrawal symptoms. It can be concluded that the applied 150 mg WS 1490 per day is an effective and safe treatment of non-psychotic anxiety syndromes in the described population.

-2001 study (mice): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15334034

Development of tolerance was studied in mice, and none could be observed during this 3-week study that used aqueous and lipophilic kava extracts. Sorrentino examined the potential for dependence. Rats showed no change in body weight or spontaneous behavior after discontinuing 3 months of treatment with a kavapyrone complex at dosages of 7.3 and 73 rng/kg body weight. Neither tolerance nor dependence was observed

- 1998 Literature review: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10186945

Abstract

Fifty-two outpatients suffering from anxiety of nonpsychotic origin were included in an observational study of a kava-kava preparation. Drug efficacy was evident on measures of a global improvement scale, with 42 patients (80.8%) rating treatment as "very good" or "good". Adverse events were rare. These results support kava-kava extract as an effective and safe alternative to antidepressants and tranquilizers in anxiety disorder without the tolerance problems associated with benzodiazepines.

- 1996: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031942296002099

Despite its psychoactive effects, kava is not considered to be physically addictive and its use does not lead to dependency

I got this list of studies from the great /r/kava subreddit. On the subreddit wiki one can also find information about the liver-safety of kava and where you can find reputable vendors.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

There are however several human studies showing 1. an anxiolytic effect 2. no addictive properties (no tolerance, dependence or withdrawal-symptoms):

No argument about the very strong anxiolitic effects of kava. It's one of its best-known properties, and what it's prized for among the Hawaiians, Micronesians, Vanuati, and the whole pacific area. There is, however, the risk of reaching tolerance and there have been incidences of a form of tolerance withdrawal, expressing itself as a kind of exhausted burn-out and depression.

It was always intended as a semi-ceremonial drug, used in greeting and honoring friends and strangers at special occasions or tribal gatherings and not intended for daily, casual use. Now it's used habitually for its considerable medicinal properties, but those don;t come without risk.

As piper methysticum has become more and more popular in the more developed, industrial nations for its anxiolitic benefits, it has often been grown and harvested carelessly, more as a cash crop than something your friends and family are going to use, share, and enjoy.

The few studies that have been done have been thinly regimented, populated, and organized, and the results have been largely anecdotal, so there really is no strong supportive research, beyond the fact that people who use it extol its considerable virtues, while possibly being less open or willing to consider its potential down sides.

I have no idea what the rats think, and I tend to regard tests on rats and other lab animals as somewhat ..... suspect, and more open to conscious or unconscious manipulation based on the need for bias confirmation of the scientists involved.

And even among the studies you quote above, there is an admission that ".......little is known about a number issues concerning kava (Piper methysticum), including (i) whether kava has any withdrawal or addictive effects; (ii) if genetic polymorphisms of the cytochrome (CYP) P450 2D6 liver enzyme moderates any potential adverse effects;....". So if your Cytochrome P450 pathways in general (and I suspect that more than the 2D6 pathway is involved) are compromised either genetically or exogenously, its hard to determine what levels might create permanent liver damage or even just temporary hepatic issues, unpleasant enough to get your full, distressed, attention.

If you substitute 'cocaine' for kava in the determinations of one of the small-population tests cited above, you would have an almost exact replication of the medical and scientific community's opinion regarding that drug in the late 19th, early 20th century: ".....Despite its psychoactive effects, kava is not considered to be physically addictive and its use does not lead to dependency.....". Swear to God, almost word for word.

So I still maintain that care must be taken when using kava as more than an occasional form of relief.

But I also believe that we are each entitled to find and pursue our own solutions, including this one. It should just be done with fully informed self-consent, as it were.

With phenibut, there's no argument: Avoid, avoid, avoid. Highly addictive, highly unpleasant to withdraw from (if you even can), leaves permanent scarring, as it were.

 

[sb4]

@YippeeKi YOW !! I know nothing about kava, I just read a couple of reddit links posted here and there they are making the argument that noble kava properly prepared is non toxic and that many sources are using tudai kava which actually is toxic due to it being much cheaper to grow.

 

[Cipher]

There is, however, the risk of reaching tolerance and there have been incidences of a form of tolerance withdrawal, expressing itself as a kind of exhausted burn-out and depression.

All the studies I linked to above (including 2 double-blind!) concluded that there is no scientific support that kava induces tolerance, dependence or withdrawal-symptoms upon cessation.

As piper methysticum has become more and more popular in the more developed, industrial nations for its anxiolitic benefits, it has often been grown and harvested carelessly, more as a cash crop

This is not a problem if you use noble kava from trusted suppliers.

The few studies that have been done have been thinly regimented, populated, and organized, and the results have been largely anecdotal, so there really is no strong supportive research, beyond the fact that people who use it extol its considerable virtues, while possibly being less open or willing to consider its potential down sides.

I think you're not being objective when you reach such a conclusion. Sure, the science could be stronger, but there is considerable scientific data indicating that kava does not induce tolerance, and there is no scientific data indicating the opposite (that I'm aware of).

And even among the studies you quote above, there is an admission that ".......little is known about a number issues concerning kava (Piper methysticum), including (i) whether kava has any withdrawal or addictive effects; (ii) if genetic polymorphisms of the cytochrome (CYP) P450 2D6 liver enzyme moderates any potential adverse effects;....". So if your Cytochrome P450 pathways in general (and I suspect that more than the 2D6 pathway is involved) are compromised either genetically or exogenously, its hard to determine what levels might create permanent liver damage or even just temporary hepatic issues, unpleasant enough to get your full, distressed, attention.

When the authors of that study wrote that they were describing the state of knowledge before they conducted the double-blind study. Later in that abstract, they wrote:

Results showed no significant differences across groups for liver function tests, nor were there any significant adverse reactions that could be attributed to kava. No differences in withdrawal or addiction were found between groups. Interesting, kava significantly increased female's sexual drive compared to placebo (p = 0.040) on a sub-domain of the Arizona Sexual Experience Scale (ASEX), with no negative effects seen in males. Further, it was found that there was a highly significant correlation between ASEX reduction (improved sexual function and performance) and anxiety reduction in the whole sample.

I agree that the safety is not known for the minority of people that have altered CYP P450 liver enzymes, so they should be careful with using kava.

If you substitute 'cocaine' for kava in the determinations of one of the small-population tests cited above, you would have an almost exact replication of the medical and scientific community's opinion regarding that drug in the late 19th, early 20th century: ".....Despite its psychoactive effects, kava is not considered to be physically addictive and its use does not lead to dependency.....". Swear to God, almost word for word.

I doubt there are any 4-6+ week double-blind studies in existence that concluded that cocaine does not induce addiction or dependency.


Here's some information from Wikipedia describing WHO's, FAO's, the Australian and New Zealand government's conclusions regarding kava's safety.

A 2016 comprehensive review of kava safety conducted by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) concluded that: "On balance, the weight-of-evidence from both a long history of use of kava beverage and from the more recent research findings indicates that it is possible for kava beverage to be consumed with an acceptably low level of health risk".[10] The authors of the review noted that:

Kava beverage has a long history of consumption in the South Pacific and has an important role in traditional community ceremonies. In recent times, it has become more widely consumed as a recreational beverage in both the South Pacific islander community as well as in the wider international community. Within these communities, kava is considered to be a safe and enjoyable beverage, based on a long tradition of use and little evidence of harm. There is little documented evidence of adverse health effects associated with traditional moderate levels of consumption of kava beverage, with only anecdotal reports of general symptoms of lethargy and headaches. Whether this reflects genuine low incidence or an under-reporting of adverse health effects is unclear. Clinical trials examining the efficacy of aqueous extracts of kava in treating anxiety, although limited, have also not identified adverse health effects.[10]​

At the same time, it was observed that:

On the other hand, there is strong evidence that high levels of consumption of kava beverage can result in scaly skin rash, weight loss, nausea, loss of appetite and indigestion. These adverse health effects, while significant, are considered to be reversible upon cessation of kava use. Other possible effects include sore red eyes, laziness, loss of sex drive and general poor health. No effect on cognition, which might be associated with the pharmacological activity of kava, has been identified. No information is available on the potential for kava beverage consumption to impact on the incidence of chronic disease. Moderate to high kava beverage consumption also produces a reversible increase in the liver enzyme gamma glutamyltransferase (GGT), which may be an early indicator of cholestasis. Clinical surveys in Aboriginal communities in northern Australia with a history of heavy kava use have not revealed any evidence of long-term liver damage associated with consumption of kava beverage.[10]​

A human health risk assessment conducted by the Australian and New Zealand governments concluded that:

The available data indicates that traditional kava beverage prepared from the root has a long tradition of safe use in the South Pacific Islands. It is compositionally different from kava products prepared by extraction using organic solvents. While excessive consumption of the traditional kava beverage may lead to adverse health effects, such as kava dermopathy [see below], there is no evidence that occasional use of kava beverage is associated with any long-term adverse effects. (...) The available data (...) does not suggest any specific health problems associated with moderate use of kava beverage.[45]​

And when they write high consumption, they really mean high consumption:

In a study by Clough (2003) examining the health and social impact of kava consumption
in Aboriginal communities in Arnhem Land (approximately 6800 individuals), there was
an increased frequency of skin rash, increased body mass index, increased GGT enzyme
levels and increased lymphocyte counts in individuals with an average consumption level
of 310-425 g kava powder/week. Overall, Clough (2003) suggests that average kava
consumption in a community from 240 g kava powder/week up to 440 g kava
powder/week is a level at which adverse health and/or social effects may begin to appear.
25
Based on the data from Clough et al (2000), this is equivalent to 3500-6440 mg
kavalactones/day.
The available published and anecdotal information on kava beverage consumption
indicates that the consumption level of kavalactones from recreational use of kava
beverage can easily exceed the level of kavalactones in aqueous extracts used for the
treatment of anxiety in a clinical setting (140–250 mg/day over 6 weeks), where no
significant toxicity was observed (Sarris et al 2013b).

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Cipher
I appreciate your input. You're clearly deeply wedded to your viewpoint, which is great. But I don;t have the focus, time or energy to turn this into an endless back-and-forth.

I said what I needed to say in order to inform members, should they be considering using kava as a daily anxiolitic, that it's not a magic bullet, and not without risks.

It was thoughtful of you to post safe sources for ordering both the correct form of kaa, and the correctly and carefully processed final product.

I doubt there are any 4-6+ week double-blind studies in existence that concluded that cocaine does not induce addiction or dependency.

I thought that I made it clear that this was the medical and scientific opinion shared almost wholesale by that community (including Freud, among others) well over a hundred years ago. And that opinion persisted into the 20th century before it was forcefully challenged.

Because of they way you you quoted your sources, I can't requote them here, so I'll copy and paste:

"Kava beverage has a long history of consumption in the South Pacific and has an important role in traditional community ceremonies. In recent times, it has become more widely consumed as a recreational beverage in both the South Pacific islander community as well as in the wider international community. Within these communities, kava is considered to be a safe and enjoyable beverage,......"​

There's a difference between the traditionally prepared beverage and a concentrated extract in terms of strength and effects.