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I can't eat protein

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
I've been on keto for years, and was slowly switching to carniovre as I felt soo much better without veggies. But that lasted only 2-3 months and my stomach crashed. It's been arround 3 monhts since I can't eat well, I've already lost 15 pounds.

I though it was any kind of food until I tried to eat just carbs for a weekend and was ok. I realize the problem is proteins. I get that full stomach feeling even if I didn't eat too much, sometimes I feel like a punch in the gut and sometimes reflux. Even when I eat protein and my stomach hurts I can get better by eating a kind of chocolate cream (called brigadeiro) we do here in Brazil which is almost pure refined sugar...

I took prazole and it helped at first but then it fastly stopped working. My nutristionist sugested it was low stomach acid instead of high and I took Betaine HCL with pepsin and the first day was ok, the second day not so much, pain all through the day.


Any idea what's happening?
 

BeADocToGoTo1

Senior Member
Messages
536
Hi @Folk

Of course there can be many reasons, and my post is just input from my personal experience.

It would be good to rule out things like exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI), small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), Candida yeast overgrowth, food sensitivities or allergies, gluten sensititivity, Chrohn's etc.

Many doctors have no real experience with how to properly test and treat someone with exocrine pancreatic insufficiency and all the subsequent nasty snowball health effects.

There is more detail in the following thread:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...y-epi-and-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs.62997/

Have you ever tried taking pancreatic enzymes with each meal to help break down the food?
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
What were you eating exactly? In particular, how much fat were you eating?

Some people, like me, seem to do better on higher fat to protein ratios, 2:1 or 3:1 on a gram for gram basis.

What happens when you have a meal consisting of only fat with no protein or carbs?
 

BeADocToGoTo1

Senior Member
Messages
536
One more bit of info should it help:

EPI or Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency Considerations:

  • PERT. Some doctors will prescribe pancreatic enzyme replacement pills like Creon to see whether your symptoms go down. You can also buy over the counter ones, but they will be unregulated in terms of strength. Better than nothing though, and they will help you break down food.
  • Stool test: fecal fat level and distribution (checks if you have issues with different types of fat intake and digestion). A 24 hour collection test is pretty standard.
  • Stool test pancreatic elastase
  • Blood test fasting trypsin (to see if you produce enough enzyme for protein breakdown)
  • Comprehensive Stool test for parasites, pathogenes, dysbiosis
  • Stool test chymotrypsin (similar to, but not as accurate as elastase)
 

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
Hi @Folk

Of course there can be many reasons, and my post is just input from my personal experience.

It would be good to rule out things like exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI), small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), Candida yeast overgrowth, food sensitivities or allergies, gluten sensititivity, Chrohn's etc.

Many doctors have no real experience with how to properly test and treat someone with exocrine pancreatic insufficiency and all the subsequent nasty snowball health effects.

There is more detail in the following thread:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...y-epi-and-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs.62997/

Have you ever tried taking pancreatic enzymes with each meal to help break down the food?

Yes I probably have SIBO. But would that make sense? I get stomach pain (right in the stomach) 2-3 minutes after I eat. And the problem is protein, I get better with sugar (at least on the stomach area and for a while). Shouldn't it be all in reverse?

I don't eat gluten, no chron's and Candida is a possibility but as far as I know theres no trustworthy test for it.

Haven't tried pancreatic enzymes but I think I can search here for it. I don't think a doctor can help me with it though, I have to do it alone.
 

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
What were you eating exactly? In particular, how much fat were you eating?

Some people, like me, seem to do better on higher fat to protein ratios, 2:1 or 3:1 on a gram for gram basis.

What happens when you have a meal consisting of only fat with no protein or carbs?
I havn't tried JUST fats as I found in the begining that high fat was the worst for the burning sensation.
Now protein seems to be the bigger problem although I don't feel burning, I feel really bad, with pain and upset stomach.
 

BeADocToGoTo1

Senior Member
Messages
536
Have you been checked for stomach ulcer and/or H.Pylori? Have you ruled out other pathogens, worms, parasites, etc. by a comprehensive stool test?

Many people take proton-pump inhibitors (a.k.a. PPI, e.g. prazole) or acid reducers chronically to mask a symptom and lower pain, and do not delve deeper into root cause, which very often is diet and/or malabsorption issues. Often these same people have too little potency in their stomach acid (too high pH), which hinders food break down and absorption. Low stomach acid can actually be a cause of bacteria and yeast overgrowth in areas that should be relatively clean (stomach, esophagus, duodenum for example). SIBO and Candida also hinder nutrient absorption and can add to the toxic and immune load in your body.

Yes I probably have SIBO. But would that make sense? I get stomach pain (right in the stomach) 2-3 minutes after I eat. And the problem is protein, I get better with sugar (at least on the stomach area and for a while). Shouldn't it be all in reverse?

I don't eat gluten, no chron's and Candida is a possibility but as far as I know theres no trustworthy test for it.

Haven't tried pancreatic enzymes but I think I can search here for it. I don't think a doctor can help me with it though, I have to do it alone.

Candida imbalance was spotted in my case through an organic acid test (OAT) by Genova.

If you can get your doctor to prescribe something like Creon, which is tightly controlled and thus easier to figure out how much to take, this might be worth trying. But there are over the counter supplement versions available that you can experiment with. Dipan-9 (Thorne) or Enhanced Super Digestive Enzymes (Life Extension) come to mind. They are to be taken with each meal or snack, or beverage that has calories, in order to help break down food into usable nutrients.

Sugars are very easy to break down so that is not surprising that it hurts less during digestion. Even your saliva has some amylase (enzyme that breaks down carbs). But protein and fats are much harder to break down, and require elements like stomach acid, bile (from gallbladder) and pancreatic enzymes (e.g. amylase, lipase, protease) to get the nutrients out of them.

It sounds like you have done a lot of focus on diet, which is great! The carnivore and keto diets will have been good as a temporary reset, to bring blood-sugar system in better balance and avoid taking in many irritants, chemicals, and manufactured/processed foods. But it may make sense to revisit the food intake to very slowly introduce a few healthy (primal = real food) elements to bring it into a better balance.

Another side thought. Have you tried chewing longer, so that more saliva is mixed and has time to help digest the food in the mouth before swallowing? Do you drink with your meal? How is the quality of your water?
 

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
Have you been checked for stomach ulcer and/or H.Pylori? Have you ruled out other pathogens, worms, parasites, etc. by a comprehensive stool test?

Many people take proton-pump inhibitors (a.k.a. PPI, e.g. prazole) or acid reducers chronically to mask a symptom and lower pain, and do not delve deeper into root cause, which very often is diet and/or malabsorption issues. Often these same people have too little potency in their stomach acid (too high pH), which hinders food break down and absorption. Low stomach acid can actually be a cause of bacteria and yeast overgrowth in areas that should be relatively clean (stomach, esophagus, duodenum for example). SIBO and Candida also hinder nutrient absorption and can add to the toxic and immune load in your body.



Candida imbalance was spotted in my case through an organic acid test (OAT) by Genova.

If you can get your doctor to prescribe something like Creon, which is tightly controlled and thus easier to figure out how much to take, this might be worth trying. But there are over the counter supplement versions available that you can experiment with. Dipan-9 (Thorne) or Enhanced Super Digestive Enzymes (Life Extension) come to mind. They are to be taken with each meal or snack, or beverage that has calories, in order to help break down food into usable nutrients.

Sugars are very easy to break down so that is not surprising that it hurts less during digestion. Even your saliva has some amylase (enzyme that breaks down carbs). But protein and fats are much harder to break down, and require elements like stomach acid, bile (from gallbladder) and pancreatic enzymes (e.g. amylase, lipase, protease) to get the nutrients out of them.

It sounds like you have done a lot of focus on diet, which is great! The carnivore and keto diets will have been good as a temporary reset, to bring blood-sugar system in better balance and avoid taking in many irritants, chemicals, and manufactured/processed foods. But it may make sense to revisit the food intake to very slowly introduce a few healthy (primal = real food) elements to bring it into a better balance.

Another side thought. Have you tried chewing longer, so that more saliva is mixed and has time to help digest the food in the mouth before swallowing? Do you drink with your meal? How is the quality of your water?

Yes H Pilory, ulcers, gastritis, parasites are all off the table.

I drink filtered water, don't drink with meals and I'm chewing more than ever (I never was to careful with that)

I think here in brazil the best way is to have a compound pharmacy do these enzymes. I don't think I'll find any brands to buy. Do you know what are the enzymes and how many mg?
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,335
Location
Southern California
I took prazole and it helped at first but then it fastly stopped working. My nutristionist sugested it was low stomach acid instead of high and I took Betaine HCL with pepsin and the first day was ok, the second day not so much, pain all through the day.
I used to have low stomach acid. I didn't have pain with it, but after eating protein or fats, it would feel like the food just sat in my stomach, didn't digest. I would feel very full and uncomfortable for hours. If you do have low stomach acid, then prazole wouldn't help and would make things worse.

So did you just try the betaine HCL with pepsin for 2 days? That's not a very long trial at all. I've taken it daily for years and it's made a huge difference in my digestion. If you only tried it for 2 days, you might need more. Yes, carbs and sugar are easier to digest - require less stomach acid- than fats and protein so that may be why you do apparently do better with them, although they may not be better for you.

Low stomach acid has been linked to SIBO. Stomach acid helps keep "bad" bacterial in check.

A simple thing you can do to check your stomach acid is dissolve 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in 8 ounces of water. Then drink the entire thing on an empty stomach. If you don't burp within a few minutes, it can indicate low stomach acid. It's important to do this on an empty stomach because baking soda will neutralize stomach acid.
 

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
I used to have low stomach acid. I didn't have pain with it, but after eating protein or fats, it would feel like the food just sat in my stomach, didn't digest. I would feel very full and uncomfortable for hours. If you do have low stomach acid, then prazole wouldn't help and would make things worse.

So did you just try the betaine HCL with pepsin for 2 days? That's not a very long trial at all. I've taken it daily for years and it's made a huge difference in my digestion. If you only tried it for 2 days, you might need more. Yes, carbs and sugar are easier to digest - require less stomach acid- than fats and protein so that may be why you do apparently do better with them, although they may not be better for you.

Low stomach acid has been linked to SIBO. Stomach acid helps keep "bad" bacterial in check.

A simple thing you can do to check your stomach acid is dissolve 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in 8 ounces of water. Then drink the entire thing on an empty stomach. If you don't burp within a few minutes, it can indicate low stomach acid. It's important to do this on an empty stomach because baking soda will neutralize stomach acid.

Yes I know wasn't long but it was the tenth medication I tried and I was just getting frustrated. But it seems to be working, I'm able to eat with caution protein, fats and carbs with HCL and Pepsin.

I did the test prior to taking HCL and never burped :|
And I probably do have SIBO but I treated twice. First time Rifaximin + Neomycin on normal diet for 30 days with no results
Second time Rifaximin + Vancomycin for 30 days on Keto with amazing amazing results since day 3 or 4, but after the course everything went back to how it was before. Now my dr wants me to take

InterFase Plus, Xifaxan (Rifaximin), Lovastatin, SBI Protect (an oral gammaglobulin product) and Glutashield (a product to help heal the leaky gut). Tbh It doesn't look promissing to me...
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,335
Location
Southern California
Yes I know wasn't long but it was the tenth medication I tried and I was just getting frustrated. But it seems to be working, I'm able to eat with caution protein, fats and carbs with HCL and Pepsin.
I'm glad to hear that! I don't think of betaine HCL and pepsin as being a medication. It's something our body uses to digest food, not something created by a pharmaceutical company.

I can't tell you what to do here, but often SIBO is caused by low stomach acid. So it may be possible that increasing your stomach acid may help your SIBO symptoms.

Also, glutamine can be helpful in treating leaky gut. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4369670/
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
I took Betaine HCL with pepsin and the first day was ok, the second day not so much, pain all through the day.

If you're overcoming low stomach acid then it's wise to start with a low dose of betaine HCL and build up. When a stomach has been low in acid for some time the lining in the stomach that protects against acid becomes thinner.

When I started taking betaine HCL with pepsin I started with a 1/2 dose capsule for a few days, then went to a full dose capsule for a few days based on how my stomach felt. By slowly increasing the dose it allowed my stomach lining to build up and protect against the supplemental acid while also allowing me to digest more protein.

I eventually figured out that I need one 650mg capsule for every four grams of protein that I eat.
 

BeADocToGoTo1

Senior Member
Messages
536
Some of the supplements I used to help with healing the lining were:
  • Gl-Encap: Contains deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL) root extract, marshmallow root extract, slippery elm bark, and aloe vera.
  • Glutagenics: Contains glutamine, deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL), and aloe gel.
  • Pure L-Glutamine: Can help with intestinal irritation and repair of mucosal lining.
During my SIBO treatment I used products such as Interfase Plus Enzymes (biofilm disruptor), Serralase - Proteolytic Enzyme Blend from Klaire Labs, Biocidin Advanced Formula from Bio-Botanical Research, pre- and pro-biotics, coconut oil (MCT), cinnamon, garlic, mustard, thyme.

In my search I read that Rifaximin alone is not effective for methane related SIBO. I did a breath test to check whether the issue was an overgrowth in methane producing or hydrogen producing or both. I took a 10 day course of both Neomycin and Rifaximin together along with all the other steps. For Candida yeast overgrowth some of the steps were similar, but the anti-fungal I used was Nystatin. A strict diet during that time was also necessary.

But, in my case the overarching element was the pancreatic enzymes to help break down food. Having undigested food molecules go further in the system can cause all kinds of havoc like auto-immune reactions, bacterial overgrowths, bloating, pains, etc.; it is not just that you will be missing out on the nutrients from the food.
 
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Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
I eventually figured out that I need one 650mg capsule for every four grams of protein that I eat.
Damn thats a lot, I'm taking 650mg at any meal. Yesterday with 5 eggs which is like 30 hram of protein.

The only time I tried to take 2 capsules I had a lot of pain
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
The only time I tried to take 2 capsules I had a lot of pain

That might be a sign that your stomach lining needs to thicken. It took weeks (maybe months) before I could tolerate one capsule for every 4 grams of protein. The amount of liquid in a meal also influences how many capsules I need since liquid dilutes the acid.
 

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
thanks a lot @PatJ @Mary @BeADocToGoTo1 and @Folk
I am on a ton of betaine HCL too... do you know by any chance how to recover own HCL production?

and what were your experiences with interfase Plus? how long, how much, with which results? I am starting right now. one interesting thing I noticed so far with interfase plus is that it makes stool more smeary. could that be a sign of biofilms getting out? (I took 1/4 capsule the fist day and have built up now to a 3/4 capsule).

is there a forum anywhere on the internet where experiences with interfase or biofilm busting in general are discussed? surprisingly I see almost nothing here on PR
 
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Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,335
Location
Southern California
do you know by any chance how to recover own HCL production?
Sorry, I don't. I've been taking a lot of supplements for a long time, and I never stop needing them. I didn't need all of this before developing ME/CFS. My own theory is that something about ME/CFS causes a deficiency in most nutrients we need and that the deficiencies won't get remedied until the ME/CFS is resolved. (of course I could be wrong about this!)

is there a forum anywhere on the internet where experiences with interfase or biofilm busting in general are discussed? surprisingly I see almost nothing here on PR
I don't know if there is such a forum elsewhere. Why don't you start a new thread here on PR about this? Tons of people here have digestive problems, so maybe are already using it or would like to learn about it -