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Hypothalamic PVN, autonomic dysfunction and limbic system theory

S-VV

Senior Member
Messages
310
Excelent writing @Iritu1021 , as usual. I really enjoy your posts.

Do you have in mind any blood markers that could show there is this double dysfuntion? Or are the problems localized to PVN/HPA tissue?
 
Messages
61
A compromised paraventricular nucleus within a dysfunctional hypothalamus: A novel neuroinflammatory paradigm for ME/CFS
A neuroinflammatory paradigm is presented to help explain the pathophysiology of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS). The hypothalamic paraventricular nucleus (PVN) is responsible for absorbing and processing multiple, incoming and convergent ‘stress’ signals, and if this cluster of neurons were affected (by neuroinflammation), the ongoing hypersensitivity of ME/CFS patients to a wide range of ‘stressors’ could be explained. Neuroinflammation that was chronic and fluctuating, as ‘inflammatory-marker’ studies support, could reflect a dynamic change in the hypothalamic PVN’s threshold for managing incoming ‘stress’ signals. This may not only be a mechanism underpinning the characteristic feature of ME/CFS, post-exertional malaise, and its associated debilitating relapses, but could also be responsible for mediating the long-term perpetuation of the disease. Triggers (sustained physiological ‘stressors’) of ME/CFS, such as a particular viral infection, toxin exposure, or a traumatic event, could also target the hypothalamic PVN, a potentially vulnerable site in the brains of ME/CFS susceptible people, and disruption of its complex neural circuitry could account for the onset of ME/CFS. In common with the different ‘endogenous factors’ identified in the early ‘neuroinflammatory’ stages of the ‘neurodegenerative’ diseases, an as yet, unidentified factor within the brains and central nervous system (CNS) of ME/CFS patients might induce both an initial and then sustained ‘neuroinflammatory’ response by its ‘innate immune system’. Positron emission tomography/magnetic resonance imaging has reinforced evidence of glial cell activation centred on the brain’s limbic system of ME/CFS patients. Neuroinflammation causing dysfunction of the limbic system and its hypothalamus together with a consequently disrupted autonomic nervous system could account for the diverse range of symptoms in ME/CFS relating, in particular to fatigue, mood, cognitive function, sleep, thermostatic control, gastrointestinal disturbance, and hypotension.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6291860/

Neuroinflammation in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis: An 11C-(R)-PK11195 PET Study
Chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) is a disease characterized by chronic, profound, disabling, and unexplained fatigue. Although it is hypothesized that brain inflammation is involved in the pathophysiology of CFS/ME, there is no direct evidence of neuroinflammation in patients with CFS/ME. Activation of microglia or astrocytes is related to neuroinflammation. 11C-(R)-(2-chlorophenyl)-N-methyl-N-(1-methylpropyl)-3-isoquinoline-carboxamide (11C-(R)-PK11195) is a ligand of PET for a translocator protein that is expressed by activated microglia or astrocytes. We used 11C-(R)-PK11195 and PET to investigate the existence of neuroinflammation in CFS/ME patients. Methods: Nine CFS/ME patients and 10 healthy controls underwent 11C-(R)-PK11195 PET and completed questionnaires about fatigue, fatigue sensation, cognitive impairments, pain, and depression. To measure the density of translocator protein, nondisplaceable binding potential (BPND) values were determined using linear graphical analysis with the cerebellum as a reference region. Results: The BPNDvalues of 11C-(R)-PK11195 in the cingulate cortex, hippocampus, amygdala, thalamus, midbrain, and pons were 45%–199% higher in CFS/ME patients than in healthy controls. In CFS/ME patients, the BPND values of 11C-(R)-PK11195 in the amygdala, thalamus, and midbrain positively correlated with cognitive impairment score, the BPNDvalues in the cingulate cortex and thalamus positively correlated with pain score, and the BPND value in the hippocampus positively correlated with depression score. Conclusion: Neuroinflammation is present in widespread brain areas in CFS/ME patients and was associated with the severity of neuropsychologic symptoms. Evaluation of neuroinflammation in CFS/ME patients may be essential for understanding the core pathophysiology and for developing objective diagnostic criteria and effective medical treatments.
http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/55/6/945.long

F1.large.jpg

(A and B) Representative parametric PET images of 11C-(R)-PK11195 binding in CFS/ME patient (A) and healthy control (B). Anatomic locations were mapped on coronal MR images. (C) Mean (±SD) regional tissue time–activity curves of 11C-(R)(R)-PK11195 for region of interest in cerebellum and thalamus in CFS/ME group and HC group. Scale indicates BPND. AMY = amygdala; CC = cingulate cortex; HC = healthy control; HIP = hippocampus; MID = midbrain; THA = thalamus; and PON = pons.

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/55/6/945/T2.expansion.html

@Murph @Hip
 
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Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Excelent writing @Iritu1021 , as usual. I really enjoy your posts.

Do you have in mind any blood markers that could show there is this double dysfuntion? Or are the problems localized to PVN/HPA tissue?
Thanks, @S-VV, appreciate your kind words. Your interest in the last discussion motivated me to write it up.
The markers are hard because this might be such a localized site of dysfunction, limited to just some parts of the limbic system, e.g. hippocampus, hypothalamus - that it would not show up even in cerebrospinal fluid, which is more of a sum of all parts of the brain. And the absolute values of TRH and CRH are of little help since they may fall within the normal range but are not matched to the current metabolic/neurotransmitter state or are not in the right proportion to each other. Remember that both TRH and CRH exert major influence on virtually every neurotransmitter in the brain.

If you have both "wanky" salivary cortisol values, DHEA, ACTH as well as "screwy" SPINA thyroid values that may well point in the direction of double hypothalamic dysfunction.

Other than that, I've observed that during early acute stage I had extremely elevated levels of phosphoethanolamine (on Genova ION+40 amino acids test), which I traced to be a byproduct of membrane sphingolipid breakdown. I also had really high intracellular calcium and low phosphorus on hair mineral analysis at that time too, which to me implies excitotoxicity and catabolic/anabolic imbalance.

Realistically, the best "marker" currently available to us is probably the awareness of your various mental states and how they respond to anything that affects HPA or HPT. I often hear people say something like: "I was taking X and it really did wonders for my fatigue but it made me super depressed so I stopped it". To me this sounds like "this drug addressed my atypical depression (HPT axis) but worsened my melancholy depression (HPA)". In this case, rather than stopping, a second drug should be added to address the now unmasked co-existing secondary depression.
 
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Messages
35
Location
Tucson, AZ
I for one, can definitely say that my own sensory gating ability declined markedly before, during, and after what I view as the tipping point into CFS/ME-like illness. I actually have a similar background to you, @Iritu1012, with an ADHD and joint-hypermobility-syndrome/dysautonomia-NOS diagnosis. The difference is that I see no point in pursuing a CFS/ME or EDS (even though I'm 99% I have EDS-classic type) diagnosis, so I don't have those diagnoses.

The problem I have here is that the link of causality is too murky as to lend any credence to sensory-gating issues as a more credible cause than any of the other many proposed mechanisms. For instance, do sensory-gating issues destroy sleep quality, which is objectively visible as the spontaneous arrousals and sleep-stage shifts seen on EEG when many of us do a polysomnogram? I have long suspected that could be the case for myself, and I then see how poor-quality sleep leads to poor "housekeeping" in the brain and body, and thus all the downstream HPAA-related effects. Do sensory gating issues cause some sort of domino effect, wherein once the hypothalamus falls, so too does the rest of the limbic system and then the body?

And then of course, the question becomes what can we even do about it?
 
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S-VV

Senior Member
Messages
310
@Iritu1021 I believe you are on the cusp of defining a novel ME/CFS/??? subgroup. And a big one at that. Probably the one Goldstein treated successfully without knowing the exact why.

But more than that, you were able to get to the bottom of your disease, which is hugely inspiring!

As for me, I don't experience major cognitive symptoms, but I generate a lot of lactic acid upon trivial exertion, verified by lactate meter.

My FT3 is just above the cutoff,and my TSH is relatively low (1.5) so definitely some euthyroid sick going on. I'll do salivary cortisol and a CTRH test and report back once I have them.

Incidentally I seem to be helped by sodium DCA, but it doesn't cure me by any means.

I'm glad to have motivated this post, and I hope for many more to come.

Happy New year and thanks for sharing your work Iritu1012!!
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,324
"A disorder of sensory gating" is a good description of the symptoms I had several years before my condition really progressed to disease state. I have read quite a bit about Goldstein's treatments and tried some of them. Goldstein is definitely a person who received way too little credit for his work and was years ahead of his time.

The one big issue I have with Goldstein's treatments is that there seems to be little evidence available to judge whether they worked past the initial "honeymoon" effect. This sort of honeymoon effect of drugs is often seen in ME/CFS, where something (a supplement, drug or other therapy) temporarily restores back homeostasis or equilibrium in the body, but then in a matter of days or weeks, the body self-regulates back to its old diseased state. IMO if sensory gating and the brain was the core problem, then the drugs that Goldstein used should not only provide temporary, but permanent benefit, and it's this part I'm skeptical about.

I personally find it more likely that something in the immune system or something provoking an immune response (like shifted gut bacteria) maintains the abnormal state and the sensory gating issue. This would imply that whatever treatment we try that aims the brain, it will most likely eventually stop working. One example of how the immune system is associated with my problems is that whenever I get a flu (which unfortunately happens rarely), all ME/CFS symptoms, including all sensory symptoms, momentarily disappear. This improvement following an infection has been observed by Ron Davis' team and also among some autistic people, who become more verbal following a fever.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
@JES, I'm not really a proponent of Goldstein's treatment protocol either but I do give him credit for localizing the disease to the limbic system.

According to Jungian psychology, there are two types of perception: intuitive and sensory. Everybody has an inborn predisposition to one. The intuitive perception relies more on the brain filling in the gaps and compiling a "global picture" of your environment while sensory perception relies on a real time, more raw / less filtered sensory input. You can take an MBTI test that shows if you are intuitive or sensor.

There's really no way to explain this well, it can only be experienced and observed by paying close attention. I've now experienced both perceptual states, and it's not that one is necessarily better than the other but each one is better suited for certain activities. A neuroscientist called Dario Nardi studied this on EEG and found that there are different parts of the brain that are activated depending on which type you are. I believe I was capable of occasional sensory processing up until my mid-20s, then it slowly almost completely disappeared but I wasn't aware of it, and I experienced it again for the first time only when I tried NDT.

The other thing according to Jung that affects our input of information processing is whether the information flow is outward or inward oriented. These are called introverted or extroverted functions. Nothing to do with personality or social style. You can have extraverted thinking or you can have introverted thinking, extroverted or introverted intuition. The direction of processing has also been shown to be determined by particular neurotransmitter settings.

The reason I'm telling you this is because I think combining these Jungian principles with physical symptoms and awareness of energetic states (which I studied through meditation and Traditional Chinese Medicine) has allowed me to raise my neurohacking to a higher level by providing me with a lot of internal data points. I think the key to successful neurohacking lies a lot more in self-awareness rather than knowledge. I'd like to write a book one day about it but it's all very hard stuff to capture verbally.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
I for one, can definitely say that my own sensory gating ability declined markedly before, during, and after what I view as the tipping point into CFS/ME-like illness. I actually have a similar background to you, @Iritu1012, with an ADHD and joint-hypermobility-syndrome/dysautonomia-NOS diagnosis. The difference is that I see no point in pursuing a CFS/ME or EDS (even though I'm 99% I have EDS-classic type) diagnosis, so I don't have those diagnoses.

The problem I have here is that the link of causality is too murky as to lend any credence to sensory-gating issues as a more credible cause than any of the other many proposed mechanisms. For instance, do sensory-gating issues destroy sleep quality, which is objectively visible as the spontaneous arrousals and sleep-stage shifts seen on EEG when many of us do a polysomnogram? I have long suspected that could be the case for myself, and I then see how poor-quality sleep leads to poor "housekeeping" in the brain and body, and thus all the downstream HPA-related effects. Do sensory gating issues cause some sort of domino effect, wherein once the hypothalamus falls, so too does the rest of the limbic system and then the body?

And then, of course, the question becomes what can we even do about it?
My focus has been on restoring neuroplasticity, BDNF, adaptogens and tonic herbs that show to affect hypothalamic function to balance out CRH and TRH, a tiny bit of thyroid for my Hashimoto's (learned through experimentation that less is more), controlling neuroexcitability with metals and as the last stage now adjusting neurotransmitters.

I actually do not put much value on my EDS diagnosis either, I see it as part of my phenotype that amplifies specific manifestations of my disease but not the root cause of it. I've been prone to neck problems since my 20s and back in 2015 suspected I might have Chiari but now I've come to see that it's all just part of autonomic dysfunction and loss of proper sensory proprioception input by the body rather than hypermobility. When my sensory and autonomic functions are both good, the spine just seems to "pop" back in place on its own, a process I facilitate with stretching and yoga postures. The blood vessels and POTS also seem to be related to neurotransmitters much more than to collagen.

I know it's a controversial topic right now - so not denying that there are other people who truly have problems to connective tissue disease - but there are plenty of cases like mine where it gets more blame than needed while the real issues remain ignored.

As for "CFS"... I don't even know what that it exactly to be honest. We really need better terminology and subset labeling. I would say that what I have is limbic autonomic dysfunction with immune and endocrine manifestations.
 

GreyOwl

Dx: strong belief system, avoidance, hypervigilant
Messages
266
I really liked your blog @Iritu1021 - thank you for sharing.

I agree with your hypothesis, and further I think that the variations we see can be attributed very much to the triggering insult, whether it was allergic (mast cell initiated), viral, toxic and also age, given children have a much greater capacity to recover from injuries to this region. What are your thoughts on that?
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,324
I don't completely disagree, maybe there are ways to neurohack some of these problems and reach a more normal state. But to re-iterate my previous point, one of the biggest discoveries I made in the last five years was that an acute infection for example from food poisoning or catching a cold diminish if not normalize all of my symptoms. Autistic people who have similar issues with sensory gating sometimes experience the same phenomena, which is explained on Google by searching "fever effect".

It is actually pretty amazing that I can reach this altered state of mind following an infection, where I am ten times more productive, more extroverted, suffer from no chronic anxiety, no fatigue and no sensory overload issues. This for me makes it very difficult to accept most theories proposed by psychiatrists and it also makes me question whether there is anything fundamentally wrong in the brain, because the cognitive recovery is so quick during the infection stage. I realize not everyone with ME/CFS or sensory issues experience this type of improvement while acutely ill, but for me nothing else has proven as effective, which points to issues elsewhere. In my case and I suspect in many other diseases which affect the brain, the immune system, chronic microglial activation and low-grade inflammation are likely driving factors and hence any attempt at adjusting neurotransmitters (e.g. with psychiatric drugs) would most likely not work long term.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,665
Location
United Kingdom
When my sensory and autonomic functions are both good, the spine just seems to "pop" back in place on its own, a process I facilitate with stretching and yoga postures.
Could you expand on this a bit please? I am trying to keep my chin tucked as my head almost always wants to lean forward. I feel this could be exacerbating any issue with my spine. What yoga postures do you use?
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Could you expand on this a bit please? I am trying to keep my chin tucked as my head almost always wants to lean forward. I feel this could be exacerbating any issue with my spine. What yoga postures do you use?

The postures I find most helpful are:

1) Half-pigeon
2) Forward Bend (sitting or standing)
3) Fish
4) Cobra/Bow
5) The Shoulderstand
6) The Plough
7) Triangle Pose
7) Neck stretches and rolls

You hold the pose until you feel the tight muscles beginning to relax. The right pose might be painful but still usually feels good on some level because you feel something opening up and being released.

I've also used this home neck traction device which helped a lot with the C1-C2 joint problem back in the day. You can also get a real traction machine prescribed at chiropractor or physical therapy office. They will also give you electrical stimulation to help relax the muscles.

I've had messed up states in the past when neither traction nor yoga were really helpful because I had such severe "rigor mortis" type spasms - those had to be addressed on neurochemical basis first, and then yoga helps to facilitate the spine realignment.

Just rolling on top of a tennis ball in tight spots can also be very helpful and so is Thai massage.

You have to focus on the whole spine from neck to hips rather than just the neck alone because these spinal impingements are often interdependent on each other - sometimes you correct the hips or middle back and only then the neck will relax.
 
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Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
I don't completely disagree, maybe there are ways to neurohack some of these problems and reach a more normal state. But to re-iterate my previous point, one of the biggest discoveries I made in the last five years was that an acute infection for example from food poisoning or catching a cold diminish if not normalize all of my symptoms. Autistic people who have similar issues with sensory gating sometimes experience the same phenomena, which is explained on Google by searching "fever effect".

It is actually pretty amazing that I can reach this altered state of mind following an infection, where I am ten times more productive, more extroverted, suffer from no chronic anxiety, no fatigue and no sensory overload issues. This for me makes it very difficult to accept most theories proposed by psychiatrists and it also makes me question whether there is anything fundamentally wrong in the brain, because the cognitive recovery is so quick during the infection stage. I realize not everyone with ME/CFS or sensory issues experience this type of improvement while acutely ill, but for me nothing else has proven as effective, which points to issues elsewhere. In my case and I suspect in many other diseases which affect the brain, the immune system, chronic microglial activation and low-grade inflammation are likely driving factors and hence any attempt at adjusting neurotransmitters (e.g. with psychiatric drugs) would most likely not work long term.
Very interesting @JES. Cytokines are involved in regulating hypothalamic TRH and CRH production so maybe it has something to do with your response. Some people get that "instant awakening" effect with sleep deprivation or with cold therapy.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
I really liked your blog @Iritu1021 - thank you for sharing.

I agree with your hypothesis, and further I think that the variations we see can be attributed very much to the triggering insult, whether it was allergic (mast cell initiated), viral, toxic and also age, given children have a much greater capacity to recover from injuries to this region. What are your thoughts on that?
Thank you for reading @GreyOwl! Yes, I like the functional medicine model of Root Cause + Trigger = Disease, and I think it actually took multiple triggers to get me as sick as I used to be. And yes, based on the combination of the genetics and triggers, everyone's disease has their unique footprint but the same shared principle.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,665
Location
United Kingdom
1) Half-pigeon
2) Forward Bend (sitting or standing)
3) Fish
4) Cobra/Bow
5) The Shoulderstand
6) The Plough
7) Triangle Pose
7) Neck stretches and rolls

Thanks, I will try some of these. Funny you should mention the sholder stand. Only a couple of days ago someone (I think @echobravo) in another thread mentioned that when they did this pose they felt something click into place in there neck and that was a big factor in their recovery. So I tried it and can get more or less into position but can not hold it due to symptoms.

You have to focus on the whole spine from neck to hips rather than just the neck alone because these spinal impingements are often interdependent on each other - sometimes you correct the hips or middle back and only then the neck will relax.

Yeah I think this is spot on. Interestingly, just yesterday I finally learned how to sit upright with good posture.
Basically, I have been reading about how jaw and head posture effects cervical spine and came across a guy called Mew who is a dentist who treats patients by teaching propper jaw/tounge/head posture. Anyway, he says lots of peoples forheads nowadays are sloped at an angle instead of parrallel to the floor. This is because there jaw is in the wrong place cutting off there airway so they lean their heads forward to compensate. I was doing this textbook case.

I tried doing what he said but couldn't get the chin tucks to feel right. Then I remembered reading or watching a video about how patients with CFS has wierd top part of spine (between shoulder blades area) and how it was flat. Got me thinking that if your head is jutting forward then your spine has to compensate and all this leads to strain on your cervical spine. The doctor who noticed nearly all CFS patients had this spine problem could have been looking at CCI patients and not know it.

Anyway, how I learnt to sit up straight... since everything I had tried had been piece meal before it was just putting a strain on muscles and holding them in an unnatural position and hence wasn't doing any good. So to get the chin tuck to work I lent my back (sitting up right, cross legged on the floor, I haven't really used chairs in a year now) further back than usual, such that if I kept my head at the angle it usually was it's center of gravity would be behind me. Then I chin tucked.

This feels like a natural position now and more importantly my back / torso feels relatively good in this position wheras before it felt pretty bad come the end of the day. My neck/head however keeps wanting to go back to its normal jutting position and holding my head it the chin tuck ATM requires me to engage my muscles and is difficult. I think this is because my head is used to the old position and possible lax ligaments/joints.

I am hopeful that if I can get my body to adapt to this new position I may see an improvement in POTS. At the very least I hope that it will allow me to sit more comfortably day to day and possibly even allow me to sleep on my back.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Thanks, I will try some of these. Funny you should mention the sholder stand. Only a couple of days ago someone (I think @echobravo) in another thread mentioned that when they did this pose they felt something click into place in there neck and that was a big factor in their recovery. So I tried it and can get more or less into position but can not hold it due to symptoms.



Yeah I think this is spot on. Interestingly, just yesterday I finally learned how to sit upright with good posture.
Basically, I have been reading about how jaw and head posture effects cervical spine and came across a guy called Mew who is a dentist who treats patients by teaching propper jaw/tounge/head posture. Anyway, he says lots of peoples forheads nowadays are sloped at an angle instead of parrallel to the floor. This is because there jaw is in the wrong place cutting off there airway so they lean their heads forward to compensate. I was doing this textbook case.


I am hopeful that if I can get my body to adapt to this new position I may see an improvement in POTS. At the very least I hope that it will allow me to sit more comfortably day to day and possibly even allow me to sleep on my back.
Can you share a link to these jaw exercises? I have uncorrected overbite so I think the jaw may be adding to my spinal imbalance. And I think today something is definitely happening to average human posture because of all the phone and computer use, especially when we do it laying down. I definitely need to take better care of my neck.

In 2015 I went to see a neurologist in Colorado who specialized in dysautonomia and since I'm a physician he basically leveled with me and said "Look, I'll be honest with you - the only thing I've seen in my 20 years of practice that sometimes helps with this is yoga".

I disagree with him on the first part because I was able to find other things that work and I believe in multi-modal approach but I do agree that yoga can be a fantastic addition to POTS recovery. I believe that my CCI corrected itself when I was sitting in a lotus pose and just became really relaxed, focused on my breath and became fully aware of my posture. I imagined strings attached to my head and neck pulling me up, and then I felt as if an invisible chiropractor cracked my neck -a really loud "pop" at the base of my skull.

Even if you start with minimum - just 1 or 3 poses per day, if you stick with it you will be amazed at the progress your body will make. If you have trouble with laying on your back, you can start by doing half pigeon in bed since you can do it laying face down. Again, I think the key is staying in pose until you begin to feel the release in muscle tightness. I hold one pose for as long as twenty minutes sometimes but you should adjust to your comfort level.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,665
Location
United Kingdom
Can you share a link to these jaw exercises? I have uncorrected overbite so I think the jaw may be adding to my spinal imbalance.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Orthotropics/videos?flow=grid&view=0&sort=p

This is the youtube channel. Just watch a couple of vids and you'll get the idea. What he is saying fall directly in line with stuff I have experienced regards to health over the past 8yrs so I think he is legit. Some pretty impresive before and afters, even in adults.

I am mainly trying to do it so I can get my overbite corrected in hopes to allow my airway to open and allow propper skull/jaw/neck/spine alingment. The asthetics would be nice though.

I believe that my CCI corrected itself when I was sitting in a lotus pose and just became really relaxed, focused on my breath and became fully aware of my posture. I imagined strings attached to my head and neck pulling me up, and then I felt as if an invisible chiropractor cracked my neck -a really loud "pop" at the base of my skull.

Since the start of last year I have been really interested in postures effect on health, espicially in regards to the fascia and how it is used in communication etc. I became even more interested after reading about CCI. I sleep on the floor and sit on the floor all day with crossed legs however I was doing this with poor back posture, head jutting forwards and tilted upwards.

I am just not flexible. I tried for months straight to sit in hero pose yet I still can't for long at all, although I am much better than when I started. My legs have only just started to not ache excessively when sitting crossed legs though I attribute that to my recent improvement in symptoms. I will try the ones where you lay on belly tonight. I am hoping just getting my body to adapt to propper sitting posture will bring the benefits I desire.

If you have trouble with laying on your back

I only have trouble sleeping on my back. Whatever I do I just can't get to sleep, but as soon as I turn on my side its lights out.
On the rare occasions I do briefly sleep on my back I am instantly awoken by snoring which I normally don't do. I speculate that this is because my jaw, which is already set back, moves further back due to gravity (I can feel it doing this) and this makes it harder to breathe. Hopefully doing mewing (jaw work) will correct this.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
https://www.youtube.com/user/Orthotropics/videos?flow=grid&view=0&sort=p

This is the youtube channel. Just watch a couple of vids and you'll get the idea. What he is saying fall directly in line with stuff I have experienced regards to health over the past 8yrs so I think he is legit. Some pretty impresive before and afters, even in adults.

I am mainly trying to do it so I can get my overbite corrected in hopes to allow my airway to open and allow propper skull/jaw/neck/spine alingment. The asthetics would be nice though.


Hopefully doing mewing (jaw work) will correct this.

There are two ancient pearls of wisdom that came to my mind regarding the tongue.

1) There's a yoga posture called Lion's Breath where you forcefully stick out tongue on exhale. I don't think I understood the real purpose of it until now. I thought it was a breathing exercise but now I think it actually might be a tongue exercise and might be designed help with atlantoaxial joint alignment.

2) Traditional Chinese Medicine uses Tongue Diagnosis to determine the energetic imbalance in the body. The overall Qi energy depletion is associated with a tongue that has teeth marks/indentations on the sides.
 
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