HRV, Autonomic Nervous System, Etc

[hapl808]

So one of my defining symptoms is tachycardia. While seated, my heart rate is usually 90-100 during the day, and maybe 80-90 at night if I'm doing okay. On very rare occasions when my HR will drop into the 70's or even high 60's at night, I feel much better. I have been unable to find out why this happens occasionally despite careful tracking. But these days rarely means maybe 2-3 times a year. If I crutch to the kitchen, HR often jumps to 120 or higher.

I use a Garmin that tracks Body Battery as a proxy for HRV. It's pretty good for showing when I'm crashing or in a crash, etc. It also tracks Stress which I think is a bit of a proxy for an overactive nervous system. That's a very good indicator of how quickly I'm burning through my own energy reserves, and likely my own underpowered parasympathetic system or overpowered sympathetic system.

I don't know if this would really help my other symptoms, but considering trying to address this again. In the past, I've tried propranolol, guanfacine, ketotifen, hawthorn, chamomile, various magnesium, etc.

So I was thinking to try metoprolol (or nebivolol). But wondering what other drugs (or herbs or supplements) might be effective for long term improvement. It does seem that a lot of drugs raise or lower HRV (TCA vs SSRI, etc), but the research is sparse. Long term improved HRV seems pretty important for mortality.

Any thoughts?

 

[almost]

HRV is the one thing that does seem to track best with my times of feeling better or worse overall. Last May, before I had Covid, I for whatever reason had improved to the 60s. That's not great for a healthy person, but for me it was essentially a personal best since getting my Garmin.

Afterward, I tanked to the 30s and 40s, and basically now hover in the 40s. I take metoprolol for arrhythmias, and the times I have been off it showed no difference in HRV. The only thing that did show distinct repeatable improvement was Unisom before bed. That was good for a good 10 points in HRV. No joke.

 

[Faith2007]

In case you haven't considered it, I wanted to mention biofeedback. This was used on me a long time ago to try to help me with sleep problems. I have the ability to slow my breathing and heart rate as a result of the biofeedback, and the ability to walk down steps in my mind. I used it recently when my heart rate was too high (getting up too early and stress) when I did my first colonscopy, not realizing I could do that outside of a sleep situation and that was what was really happening. I don't have tachycardia. I have low normal blood pressure, and it has dropped too low before, but that's not common for me. Here's an article on HRV biofeedback https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104929/

 

[hapl808]

This was used on me a long time ago to try to help me with sleep problems. I have the ability to slow my breathing and heart rate as a result of the biofeedback, and the ability to walk down steps in my mind.

How did you do biofeedback? I tried it a few times many years ago (maybe 15 years) and didn't find it helpful at the time, but I'm not sure I had the same elevated baseline heart rate back then.

 

[Faith2007]

How did you do biofeedback? I tried it a few times many years ago (maybe 15 years) and didn't find it helpful at the time, but I'm not sure I had the same elevated baseline heart rate back then.

So I did this around 15 years ago as well. My memory isn't excellent on this, but I had a machine hooked around my middle that I could sit down with. It must have been monitoring my heart rate and breathing, and possibly more. And the therapist must have been guiding me based on the machine's data she saw to put me into the rhythm with my heart and breathing she wanted me to be in for sleep. We did other work. I remember a visualization she had me make up on my own and write of a place I wanted to be in where I could step down into the water. It's like counting down when you would go into hypnosis, or walking down stairs. So it's like I physically feel myself stepping down, but in my mind. So now I step down mentally when I am slowing my heart rate and breathing. It's like what I do with my heart rate and breathing is automatic based on the biofeedback I was taught. In the past, when I would do the full visualization, which I haven't done for a long time, that was completely relaxing as well. It's supposed to be a safe place, if I remember correctly.

 

[hapl808]

So it's like I physically feel myself stepping down, but in my mind. So now I step down mentally when I am slowing my heart rate and breathing. It's like what I do with my heart rate and breathing is automatic based on the biofeedback I was taught. In the past, when I would do the full visualization, which I haven't done for a long time, that was completely relaxing as well. It's supposed to be a safe place, if I remember correctly.

Interesting. I did something similar for biofeedback (although I think the device read it off my hand), and also for hypnosis (which failed - I don't think I can be hypnotized). The walking down the stairs into the water I remember more specifically from the hypnosis session.

 

[Blazer95]

Hi fellow HRV in the toilet Club. My nighttime average is 30-40ms and daytime i hover arround 8-20ms

 

[kangaSue]

Have you tried just doing the valsalva maneuver to reduce your heart rate? Safest to do this with the 'syringe technique', and best while reclining or laying down.
https://www.cochrane.org/CD009502/V...noeuvre-for-stopping-an-abnormal-heart-rhythm
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20002714/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10214827/

 

[hapl808]

Have you tried just doing the valsalva maneuver to reduce your heart rate? Safest to do this with the 'syringe technique', and best while reclining or laying down.

Thanks for the links - I'll look into it. My impression was that this was more for temporary spikes - like SVT with an HR over 150, trying to get it out of that state. Is it also effective for elevated baseline - somewhat regular old sinus tachycardia in the 100-110 range? Part of my issue is that it rarely drops below 80, but I feel much better on those rare occasions.

 

[Faith2007]

So I found this on somebody using quantum biofeedback, different that what we were talking about, with CFS https://www.qxworld.eu/how-i-beat-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

After reading that, I found somebody I personally know who does quantum feedback, who diagnosed me with an autoimmune condition. This explains what quantum feedback is and lists what it treats https://www.creatingquantumhealth.com/quantum-bio-feedback

This is now on my list of treatments I will try, since it lists mutliple problems I have that it can possibly treat. It may be a good way to relax as well, since I've struggled too much with meditation to be able to do it.

 

[kangaSue]

Is it also effective for elevated baseline - somewhat regular old sinus tachycardia in the 100-110 range? Part of my issue is that it rarely drops below 80, but I feel much better on those rare occasions.

Sorry, all I know about it is that my hubby gets occasional tachcardia attacks for no obvious reason and can generally get them to settle doing the valsalva maneuver the old fashioned way.
We didn't know about the syringe method, just come across that this morning doing a quick search to see if there was anything new for it.

 

[Lee Hoeppner]

Whilst it's important to listen to your body I definitely see the benefits of using HRV and other metrics to help plan what may be feasible that day.

I have a Fitbit charge and it records HRV, RHR & oxygen levels when you are asleep and it also produces a readiness & stress score using sleep and other stats. The HRV is personal to everyone but I have found it's an accurate reflection on how I feel. My HRV plummeted when I had COVID and returned to 'normal' levels when I recovered! It knew I had COVID before I did!!!

On days when I feel ok to walk further than normal or spend time gardening I actually rest if my HRV and oxygen levels are low as they are typically proven right!!!

Like others I also suffer with tachycardia with my heart rate jumping from low 50's to over 100 just by putting the kettle on so this for me is like a real time indicator in terms of what I can and can't do.

It does feel that I spend most of my day monitoring my vitals but the hardest part for me is getting excited when I feel ok and over do things only to crash. So I feel that keeping an eye on my HRV & oxygen levels in particular is a good indicator of what maybe possible that day (obviously in conjunction with pacing).

 

[Blazer95]

there is this IV therapy floating around in germany currently claiming to help your vagus nerve.

its called "vagusvit" and consists of procaine, gluthathione, potassium, magnesium, choline and some other stuff. they say it approves your HRV and vagal tone.

i have no idea how scientific that actually is but i think the day in injected random polish peptides into my belly button i have surpassed that border long ago anyway. i will try it i think.

what seems to help my hrv short term is breathing exercise. the problem is as soon as i stop the breathing exercise, my hrv crashes back down in like 3 seconds. i have no idea how to improve this vagal tone thing at all.....

sucks ass huh.