How Sleep Clears Toxins from the Brain

[Wishful]

https://www.wired.com/story/scientists-now-know-how-sleep-cleans-toxins-from-the-brain/

I don't know if it has any connection to ME, but it's a possibility. I'll let the experts see if it fits with their theories for ME.

 

[Hip]

This article on the subject says:

Researchers found that during deep sleep, the "slow-wave" activity of nerve cells appears to make room for cerebral spinal fluid to rhythmically move in and out of the brain -- a process believed to rinse out metabolic waste products.

Those waste products include beta-amyloid -- a protein that clumps abnormally in the brains of people with dementia, said researcher Laura Lewis, an assistant professor of biomedical engineering at Boston University.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

THanks for posting....just co-incidentally read that and I think its an important issue to track as we pursue our issues, research etc.

We experience unrefreshing sleep; and for some of us, this has likely directly reduced our ability to repair and get rid of, toxins, scavange proteins, etc.

In Chinese traditional medicine, the Yin, is rebuilt at night during sleep. When the Yin is not in balance, Yang increases (heat, inflammation).

So this makes lots of sense and the notion that the CFS fluid itself is washing through and clearing- seems very important.

And isn';t it too bad that our brain inflammation remains some mystery that few study. Our cognition issues aren't worthy of pursuing....but thank you Jarred Younger.

 

[Gar Dee]

I'm only new here, and medically inept, so forgive me if something like this has been discussed elsewhere:

My understanding is that CSF in the brain is produced, circulated, and replenished multiple times a day, every day. However if the regular daytime 'wave' actions are just too small to efficiently cleanse out many toxins / waste, and the lion's share is happening while asleep (due to the more intense movements), then this surely opens up a number of possibilities.

In Alzheimer's / dementia the intensity of this cleaning action is maybe being suppressed slowly over time, but perhaps in M.E. it's switching off almost completely after a period of over-exertion, and therefore resulting in the onset of PEM (and that 'poisoned' feeling) the next day? The 'recovery' period from this PEM episode may then be the night-time CSF wave-action slowly returning back to near-normal duties.

Alternatively it may be possible that the wave action is normal, but the composition of the CSF fluid itself may be somehow compromised after over-exertion (due to some sort of inflammation in the region of the brain that manufactures it).

Or maybe the CSF is becoming contaminated somehow - perhaps bacteria from a leaky gut, or dormant virus, but directly into the lower spinal canal instead of the bloodstream? These toxins in the slower-moving spinal canal fluid might then mix with the circulating fluid of the brain at night when the person's in a horizontal orientation, then doing the damage (with the resultant long-term lack of regular CSF 'housekeeping' ability playing a part in at least some of the bizarre and diverse symptoms we're familiar with).

Personally speaking, excessive impact or stress to my own lower back in the past would have been a catalyst for PEM the next day (although general over-exertion, like aerobic exercise, and mental stress could also be a trigger).

Another thing - magnesium supplements seem to help some people to lower PEM severity, and CSF seems to contain magnesium. And caffeine - I read somewhere that caffeine has been advantageous in increasing CSF volume in patients who've had CSF leaks. It's thought there are circadian variations in CSF production too, which may contribute to the slightly improved mood and energy levels experienced by some patients in the latter part of each day.

Anyhow, just some thoughts.......

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Alternatively it may be possible that the wave action is normal, but the composition of the CSF fluid itself may be somehow compromised after over-exertion

An overwhelming feeling I have right now as I read that is: its thickened...its too thick...thats what it feels like inside and behind my- perceptual system.

My lymph cleansing stupor, is continuing.

 

[Wishful]

@Gar Dee offered some interesting possibilities. What I'll have to think about is how they fit with temporary remissions. Whatever is responsible for the ME state can switch back to normal healthy function over a time span of minutes (tens of ?). I don't think that a dose of iodine or whatever can suddenly flush the brain's drains clear. I'm pretty sure (fallible human memory though) that I triggered one remission in the morning, not long after taking some iodine or T2, so sleep wouldn't have been involved with that.

More thought required...

 

[Rufous McKinney]

An overwhelming feeling I have right now as I read that is: its thickened...its too thick...thats what it feels like inside and behind my- perceptual system.

My lymph cleansing stupor, is continuing.

This illness has an overall drying effect on the body. That is probably tied to the inflammation (heat). Heat rises in the body, and in mine, is concentrated in at the top, the head, neck etc.

Often, I indicate the Sahara desert resides in my throat, or on my tongue. Any drying pill side effect causes me to choke and gag.

So the Central River (what the chinese traditional medicine would view as corrections to the lymph, this river)...that cleanses the body...and this river of CSF which washes the brain- its...needs internal hydration thru a rebalancing.

The river flows thru movement, but our movement has been impaired. We must seek other means to- generate my flow in the river.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

This illness has an overall drying effect on the body.

I don't think it's the illness per se as much as the many medications that are thrown at it, and the SSRI's and anti-anxiety meds. Benzos in particular have a serious drying effect.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I don't think it's the illness per se as much as the many medications that are thrown at it, and the SSRI's and anti-anxiety meds. Benzos in particular have a serious drying effect.

In my case, I take no such medications. Any time they gave me a prescription that included dry mouth as a side effect, I was choking within days and ceased the medication.

So my body generates it in an unmedicated state. But maybe other peoples bodies differ, and don't do any of that.

When I agreed to "try" an SSRI, and was assured that was not a side effect by the doctor, I lasted 48 hours. I'm choking in additional to numerous other horrible symptoms (like lockjaw). It took me three months to recover from two Zoloft. I then saw that dry mouth IS a side effect of SSRIs. Doctor was wrong.

When the dentist formulated something to "help me with" this very issue, instead- I was choking in four days. Threw away that $75.

 

[Wishful]

Heat rises in the body,

Convection doesn't apply in the body. I expect that heat is transferred mainly by pumped fluids. Hot spots are probably caused locally (inflammation or whatever). That's assuming that it's not an increased perception of heat. I know I often misjudge my body temperature.

If you do have a body area of elevated temperature, you might want to investigate what might be causing it, since it's not heat flowing up via convection.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

If you do have a body area of elevated temperature, you might want to investigate what might be causing it, since it's not heat flowing up via convection.

I'm speaking more to energetic heat than literal heat, altho Younger has demonstrated so far, that we also have literal heat in areas of the brain.

But I otherwise agree with you; I'm not seriously invested in my comment. Its just doing it here.

Suddenly, I feel like measuring temperatures with my nifty: radiant temperature reading gun. Its so handy. While it might be 102 in the air outside, the deck is 146, and the oleander bushes are 99. This is the handiest device I own.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

If you do have a body area of elevated temperature

While not invested, I make note that- my forehead is currently measuring 93.5 degrees farenheit radiant temperature. The bottom of my foot is 81.5. This is a more than 10 degree temperature difference.

Obviously our heads are hotter than our feet. More blood there and the head is a larger denser object than feet.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Suddenly, I feel like measuring temperatures with my nifty: radiant temperature reading gun. Its so handy. While it might be 102 in the air outside, the deck is 146, and the oleander bushes are 99. This is the handiest device I own.

You and I seem to come from the same lovable OCD pod ..... I would totally go nuts with a temp reading gun !!!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

While not invested, I make note that- my forehead is currently measuring 93.5 degrees farenheit radiant temperature. The bottom of my foot is 81.5. This is a more than 10 degree temperature difference.

Completely get it. Especially the 'not totally invested' part, even as I would probably keep reading temps on everything from both knees to individual fingers to the pillow I lay my head on

 

[Rufous McKinney]

You and I seem to come from the same lovable OCD pod ..... I would totally go nuts with a temp reading gun !!!

Radiant temperature is much funner than air temperature.

I used to take this thing out to the dunes. Where reflectance, and changes in albedo, affect whether this darling little seedling will survive, or not. Ever checked the radiant temperature at the ground surface on sand? Bake.

 

[Gar Dee]

What I'll have to think about is how they fit with temporary remissions. Whatever is responsible for the ME state can switch back to normal healthy function over a time span of minutes (tens of ?). I don't think that a dose of iodine or whatever can suddenly flush the brain's drains clear. I'm pretty sure (fallible human memory though) that I triggered one remission in the morning, not long after taking some iodine or T2, so sleep wouldn't have been involved with that.

I'm curious as to how common instances of near-instantaneous remission from PEM episodes really are though? Over decades I can't say I ever recall any. The closest would have been a considerable reduction in PEM symptoms after one night's sleep, and often that would only happen as I was starting to develop something else (like a really bad cold).

 

[Wolfcub]

What I'll have to think about is how they fit with temporary remissions. Whatever is responsible for the ME state can switch back to normal healthy function over a time span of minutes (tens of ?)

I also have experienced these temporary remissions, and in my case not as a result of anything I've taken, And often even after a bad sleep. The first time it happened, May 2018, I'd had only 3 hours' sleep, the plumber had arrived, so I was busy (and feeling really horrible.)
Then suddenly I was okay! It felt like the "eye of the storm", I felt well, normal, had an appetite. It lasted an hour. It was early afternoon (thus not after sleeping)

That phenomenon continues, sometimes lasting for days though now. Never as a direct result of anything at all that I've done, not done, taken, or after sleep. Completely at random.

 

[Wishful]

I'm curious as to how common instances of near-instantaneous remission from PEM episodes really are though?

Do a search for titles with 'remission' and you'll get four pages worth. That's a mix of long term and short term remissions. From vague memories of earlier discussions, temporary remissions do seem to be fairly common. Do a poll if you're really interested.

 

[Gar Dee]

Do a search for titles with 'remission' and you'll get four pages worth. That's a mix of long term and short term remissions. From vague memories of earlier discussions, temporary remissions do seem to be fairly common. Do a poll if you're really interested.

What I'm curious to know is whether switching into temporary PEM remission is common while the person's conscious and aware of it happening (ie during the day), or whether it's mostly present on waking after a sleep (ie a full nights sleep, or even after a 'deep' daytime nap). I'm trying to connect it back to the whole 'sleep clearing toxins from the brain' thing. I guess I'll have to do some further searches. I'm not sure if I have the privileges yet to start a poll, as I'm only new on the forum.

 

[Mary]

Hi @Gar Dee - you do have full privileges now, and you can start a poll