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How do you break a folate trap?

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I suspect I am experiencing a folate trap.

(a) I've been taking a 3mg methylfolate for a year and felt very ill throughout. Occasionally I would also take folic acid in my multivitamin. I usually got a good but short-lived response after taking folate.

(b) Recently I stopped taking all folate supplements and felt very much better after a week although far from healed.

If I do still have trapped folate then how do I break the trap?

I increased my B12 by using frequent injections, which should help convey methyl groups away from the folate cycle.

I've seen Freddd's recommendation to break a folate trap by taking huge amounts of methyl folate, however I don't feel comfortable with attempting that.

Are there other ways? Will trapped folate disspate in time (what period?) if I don't take more methyl folate or folic acid?
 
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junkcrap50

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I've seen Freddd's recommendation to break a folate trap by taking huge amounts of methyl folate, however I don't feel comfortable with attempting that.
That's how I got out of the trap. I took HUGE amounts of folate. Bordering toxic levels of methylfolate (if that's even possible). Note: I was taking it intranasally and orally, which is ~4x-5x as potent (absorbed) as orally because much, much more is absorbed. See my post here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...iciency-or-just-screwed-up.43918/#post-715165

More here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...e-dose-for-freddds-protocol.60812/post-989732

I think that by taking more B12, you are doing the opposite of what you need. You are requiring more and more folate with every additional B12. I would stop the B12 and just concentrate on folate to get yourself out of the "hole".

In the end, I found the Freddd Protocol not helpful and actually harmful to me (permanently so far). I do not believe in the "traps" and "holes" etc. What feels like traps and holes is actually inflammation. Pushing the methylation cycle is pushing against a broken system, which leads to an output of high inflammation. More methylation - more inflammation (b/c our systems are broken). My doctor and naturopath both would describe it every time I wanted to do methylation support. And it wasn't until I saw a video of Nancy Klimas saying the exact same thing, "methylation can lead to too much inflammation." (I'll try to find the video).
 

ljimbo423

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(a) I've been taking a 3mg methylfolate for a year and felt very ill throughout. Occasionally I would also take folic acid in my multivitamin. I usually got a good but short-lived response after taking folate.
I struggled with methylation for a long time. I finally found a post here that said they increased their dose of methylfolate every 2-3 days, which minimized any side effects. So I tried going up, 100-200 mcgs every 2-3 days and had no more issues with feeling miserable from the dosage increase.

After a few weeks I was taking 6.4 milligrams a day and felt a huge increase in energy. Like some kind of switch got turned on. Unfortunately that energy slowly faded. Even though I still take 3-4 mg a day of both methylfolate and methylcobalamin, it doesn't do a lot to overcome symptoms.

My feeling is, the methylation issues in CFS are secondary to other issues, like high oxidative stress, immune activation, etc.
 

Eastman

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@Busson

A folate trap has to be treated by B12, but how do you know you have folate trap?

Have you seen these articles by Dr Ben Lynch?

Methylfolate Side Effects

Preventing Methylfolate Side Effects

Freddd's recommendation to take huge amounts of methylfolate is to treat paradoxical folate deficiency, a different problem whereby a small increase in folate intake increases processes that consume folate in excess of the increased intake, resulting in a deficiency, hence the term "paradoxical".

Paradoxical folate deficiency is an unproven concept as far as I am aware. It is simply Freddd's theory of what he experienced.
 
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Hi, as said by @Eastman , you should be sure it's really a folate trap.. if you increased your b12 intake, and especially if you have had frequent b12 injections, it's not sure you're dealing with a folate trap. In any case, if it were a folate trap, in would dissipate in maximum 4 days, but not taking folate for four days if you took huge amounts of b12, probably won't make you feel good.. that's why I do not recommend excessive B12 doses.. it puts your body to become dependent on excessive doses of other cofactors, with an almost unpredictable pharmacokinetics, and consequent slavery of (random) megadoses of what is going to miss, and consequent further imbalance..
 
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Freddd's recommendation to take huge amounts of methylfolate is to treat paradoxical folate deficiency, a different problem whereby a small increase in folate intake increases processes that consume folate in excess of the increased intake, resulting in a deficiency, hence the term "paradoxical".
@Eastman

I have tried to carefully decode the terms Fredd uses and thought Freddd's "paradoxical folate deficiency" was his name for a folate trap.

As I understand it, trapping occurs when a person takes more folate than can be processed by B12/methionine synthase activity, with the result that folate accumulates and then (according to the hypothesis) the sheer quantity of it somehow causes it to be dumped out of the cell where it was needed. The folate ends up lying trapped in a non-usable location/state.

The result is lots of folate but paradoxically it's non-functional. The person's symptoms are those of folate deficiency.

Does Freddd mean something different to that by "paradoxical folate deficiency"? I have never read about incremental increases in dose.
 
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@junkcrap50 @ljimbo423

You both found increased methylfolate worked but how does that happen? Is there any theory, here or elsewhere, which explains why huge doses of methylfolate break the trap?

I am very wary of taking more of what made me ill. Some old posts by Rick suggest taking folinic acid but it seems worryingly similar to folic acid and methylfolate.
 

ljimbo423

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@junkcrap50 @ljimbo423

You both found increased methylfolate worked but how does that happen? Is there any theory, here or elsewhere, which explains why huge doses of methylfolate break the trap?
I don't know why the high dose methyfolate "turned on" my methylation cycle like it did. I think some of the enzymes in the cycle are dysfunctional, from high levels of oxidative stress.

They are probably only partially impaired and the high doses of MF compensates for the enzyme impairment.

My guess, from the research I've done, would be that it overrides the enzymes that are not working right in the methylation cycle.

I am very wary of taking more of what made me ill. Some old posts by Rick suggest taking folinic acid but it seems worryingly similar to folic acid and methylfolate.
I would say to do what you feel is most likely to work for you and I understand that's often not a very easy decision to make.
 

junkcrap50

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You both found increased methylfolate worked but how does that happen? Is there any theory, here or elsewhere, which explains why huge doses of methylfolate break the trap?
I don't know. I don't believe Fredd's stuff is necessarily applicable for ME/CFS parients (just him who was in severe B12 defiecnecy) or even true to begin with. I think his protocol is dangerous.

The best explanation I can give you is that these methylation supplements (Fredd's quadtro) PUSH the methylation cycle and the chemical reaction pathways by having excess reagents. If you don't have cofactors or other parts to support the methylatoin cycle, having excess reagents or "pushers" of the cycle can cause a build up. This will drive inflammation very high by having broken methylation/biochemical pathways. Adding methylfolate will relieve this chemical reaction/pathway pressure build up by excess "PUSHING."

The methylfolate alone won't hurt. It will just "use" up the excess / build up of B12 and other cofactors. If you take huge methylfolate with B12 and other cofactors, then you will just build upon the problem. Once you "run" the methylation cycle to relieve any buildup or blockages or relieve the pathway pressure -- by taking large doses of methylfolate -- you can stop or taper down the methylfolate.

Note, that because I took 53mg of methlyfolate SUBLINGUALLY and INTRANASALLY. This equates to taking ~250+mg orally. (A HUGE NUMBER!) I don't remember the exact absorption rates, but oral ingestion absorption of methylation supplements is something like 20%. Intranasal and sublingual is something like 85%-90+% absorbed. So orally 53.4mg = 10.68mg absorbed. 53.4mg sublingual = 48.06mg absorbed. ~5x absorption.

After ~2 weeks of mega doses of mfolate, I was able to stop all methylfolate and methylation supplements.
 
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Eastman

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Does Freddd mean something different to that by "paradoxical folate deficiency"? I have never read about incremental increases in dose.
You may want to read this post by Freddd, and specifically, this statement:

Let’s say a person starts with a 200mcg dose of Metafolin with sufficient MeCbl-AdoCbl to start healing. In about three days frequently occur low potassium and/or donut hole folate insufficiency as a set of symptoms often called “detox”. The folate insufficiency symptoms can be relieved by taking enough Metafolin. If a person titrates at 200mcg per day they likely will not resolve the symptoms. That is because the additional folate generates additional need and plenty of time to start even more healing.
Also, here is a post by another member giving her take on paradoxical folate deficiency.

Finally, a post by Freddd suggesting that alleviating a folate trap with B12 can induce a folate deficiency.

This also expands the definition of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency to include an induced methylfolate deficiency by mb12 and low dose methylfolate.
 
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@Eastman Thank you for looking up those links for me. I appreciate it. Even after boiling down Freddd's posts and those by others, there doesn't seem much tangible science I can get my teeth into to use in my own situation. After all his theory, many of his new ideas seem to remain largely conjectures.

As I see it, Freddd was largely confirming existing B12 and folate science while, importantly, bringing a patient's perspective to it. But I don't think there is anything radically new in what he says, although his definitions can be hard to get to grips with.

I am currently seeking some simple fact-based theory I can put into practise and can watch with existing theory about methylation, trapping and fucntional deficiency.

My purpose is to haul myself out of a exceedingly bad methyl trap and consequent folate dumping leading to functional folate deficiency, which I have been in and out of for over a year. I am only able to write this because I stopped all folate 2 weeks ago and it has made a huge difference. I want to complete the healing and also not to ever get into that bad state again.
 
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