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High Dose Niacin not enough to quench mild overmethylation

Messages
30
Hi,

When I take enough methylfolate to feel normal (clear-headed, energized, good mood, etc.) during the day, it always gives me trouble sleeping. The standard solution would be to take some niacin at bedtime—but even when I take as much as 500+ mg, enough to get a nice flush (indicating that I’m no longer overmethylated) and an initial sense of relaxation, that energizing methylfolate feeling (which I cherish in daytime) sort of kicks in again after a little while and keeps running all night like a freight train.

I take my methylfolate in the morning and sometimes at lunchtime, 15–22.5 mg/day (a lower dose makes me slip into undermethylation). Cutting down on daytime MF is not an option since I need that high a dose to be functional.

Any hacks to slow this nighttime methylation freight train, provided that niacin doesn’t quite do the job?
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
Hi,
I don't think the flush has anything to do with you being "over-methylated" or not... that's just what niacin does.

To calm you down and help the sleep you may try several "tricks" such Ashwagandha, Valerian root, Passion Flower and GABA. Just don't try them all together! :)

Also for some people the trick is to balance methylfolate and B12, which need to work together.

cheers
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
I have slept much better the last 2 nights since I started taking Milk Thistle before bed. It used to help me sleep and still does. I think it has to do mostly with preserving Glutathione levels "The active component of milk thistle called silymarin prevents lipid peroxidation of GSH and maintains its levels."

Many people who take Reduced Glutathione also report much better sleep: The 2nd page for Jarrow Reduced Glutathione has 2 reviews stating this

I wasn't sure though, if taking Glutathione was something we should or should not take while taking DQ supps.

Are you taking enough minerals before bed (particularly Potassium)
 
Messages
30
Thanks for your replies. I’m already doing the standard sleeping tricks like magnesium, relaxing herbs, and so on; they are part and parcel of my nighttime supplement regime. They do their job just fine, but they can’t stop the methylation freight train. I have a nice mfolate/b12 balance so that’s not the problem either.

I’m just looking for something more effective than niacin to temporarily calm down the stimulating mfolate effects for the night.

If I take too little mfolate, so as to make me sluggish and depressed during daytime, then I often sleep OK, ironically enough. So I know my sleeping issues are directly related to the degree of methylation (i.e., the mfolate dosage).

(The niacin flushing will be very mild or even nonexistent if you’re severely overmethylated, since overmethylation drives down histamine, which is needed for the flush. That’s why I mentioned my ”nice flush”.)
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
(The niacin flushing will be very mild or even nonexistent if you’re severely overmethylated, since overmethylation drives down histamine, which is needed for the flush. That’s why I mentioned my ”nice flush”.)
Oh! I never realized this. Last week when I felt very over-methylated, I took 100 mg niacin and waited for the flush which barely came. Usually I have to wait an hour for it to pass because it can have a very hot, burning effect, but not this time. Now I know why.
 

Kimsie

Senior Member
Messages
397
Hi,

When I take enough methylfolate to feel normal (clear-headed, energized, good mood, etc.) during the day, it always gives me trouble sleeping. The standard solution would be to take some niacin at bedtime—but even when I take as much as 500+ mg, enough to get a nice flush (indicating that I’m no longer overmethylated) and an initial sense of relaxation, that energizing methylfolate feeling (which I cherish in daytime) sort of kicks in again after a little while and keeps running all night like a freight train.

I take my methylfolate in the morning and sometimes at lunchtime, 15–22.5 mg/day (a lower dose makes me slip into undermethylation). Cutting down on daytime MF is not an option since I need that high a dose to be functional.

Any hacks to slow this nighttime methylation freight train, provided that niacin doesn’t quite do the job?
Try niacinamide instead. 500 mg of regular niacin will mostly be excreted without methylation by conjugation with glycine. Niacinamide will drain more SAMe and stays in your system longer. You might not need so much niacinamide, you might want to start with 100-250 mg.

Or you could try some glycine since GNMT uses glycine to lower SAMe when the levels get too high. Niacin will actually lower your glycine, which might increase SAMe depending on how much glycine you have available.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,267
Location
Ashland, Oregon
A bedtime trick that works really well for me is to eat butter an hour or two before going to bed. It may not necessarily effect methylation, but the modulating effect of butyrate in the butter on so many body functions is my best guess on why it helps me so consistently with my sleep. My favorite snack is a small portion of yam with a moderate amount of butter (1-2 thin tabs) and salt.

Abstract

... butyrate exerts potentially useful effects on many conditions, including hemoglobinopathies, genetic metabolic diseases, hypercholesterolemia, insulin resistance, and ischemic stroke. The mechanisms of action of butyrate are different; many of these are related to its potent regulatory effects on gene expression. These data suggest a wide spectrum of positive effects exerted by butyrate, with a high potential for a therapeutic use in human medicine."​
 
Messages
30
Try niacinamide instead. 500 mg of regular niacin will mostly be excreted without methylation by conjugation with glycine. Niacinamide will drain more SAMe and stays in your system longer. You might not need so much niacinamide, you might want to start with 100-250 mg.

Or you could try some glycine since GNMT uses glycine to lower SAMe when the levels get too high. Niacin will actually lower your glycine, which might increase SAMe depending on how much glycine you have available.


Kimsie, that answer was the real deal and pretty much what I was looking for. I’ve actually been helped by glycine a few times and this confirms that notion. I’ll also look into niacinamide instead of niacin. Thanks!
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
Sounds like taking a lot of B3 then might exhaust glycine supplies. It seems that too much one one thing is always gonna cause a deficiency somewhere else.
 
Messages
30
@sb4 Sure. I found that Kimsie’s advice about niacinamide was quite useful. It’s definitely more effective than niacin, in any case, to take the edge of overmethylation. Only concern is that in large amounts it raises serotonin, and for me that has a stimualtory effect, causing bizarre dreams and restless sleep. So it’s a fine balance to master.

But by accident I discovered something that worked even better than pure niacinamide: Thorne’s Basic B Complex. I don’t know why, but for some reason one or two capsules quenches overmethylation significantly without raising serotonin too much. It does have a good amount of niacinamide in it, but I think the overall composition of it contributes to a synergistic effect. It’s such a powerful ”downer” that I can’t even use it as my daily B complex; then my methylation never gets going at all during the day.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
@sb4 Sure. I found that Kimsie’s advice about niacinamide was quite useful. It’s definitely more effective than niacin, in any case, to take the edge of overmethylation. Only concern is that in large amounts it raises serotonin, and for me that has a stimualtory effect, causing bizarre dreams and restless sleep. So it’s a fine balance to master.

But by accident I discovered something that worked even better than pure niacinamide: Thorne’s Basic B Complex. I don’t know why, but for some reason one or two capsules quenches overmethylation significantly without raising serotonin too much. It does have a good amount of niacinamide in it, but I think the overall composition of it contributes to a synergistic effect. It’s such a powerful ”downer” that I can’t even use it as my daily B complex; then my methylation never gets going at all during the day.
Very interesting, so do you take this at night and a seperate one in the day? I have noticed it has methylfolate and m b12 in? Isn't this supposed to drive methylation higher?
 
Messages
30
It does have some methylfolate and MB12 in it but since I require so large doses of these two to get my methylation going I don’t even notice the minute amounts in the Basic B Complex. It sedates me, that’s all. Other people may have totally different reactions. I only take it in case of methylfolate-related overstimulation, not on a regular basis.