Has anyone heard of blood autovaccines to cure Lyme or ME/CFS?

lenora

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No, and I guess it doesn't matter since he died in October. Nice thoughts.....but definitely unknown to me. Yours, Lenora.
 

BrightCandle

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The process in preparing the autovaccine sounds doable as well, its just blood and sterile water and salt and a bit of rocking the solution about.

https://www.artofmedicure.eu/en/autovaccine-therapy/main-article-autovaccine-therapy

Alas you can't contact Dr Kunst because he died October 6th, 2021 so what we have is the website and its articles but it doesn't look like there is a treatment option here anymore other than following their procedures yourself.
 

Carl

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The ME/CFS infection is not in the blood, it's where the immune system cannot get at it because it's hidden by a biofilm in the digestive system. Plus the pathogen(s) can be any one of a 1000+ micro-organisms. If a vaccine would work, which I don't believe it can, can you expect to make a vacinne which can work on thousands of different micro-organisms, both bacteria, yeast, fungi or protozoa? Unlikely IMO.

"COVID-19> Let's make a vaccine to solve everything."
 

bensmith

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@Nuno i contacted a place in dallas who seemed to do the same thing as markov, interesting that some places are doing similar treatment.

although i’m not sure how close it was. But the coordinator said you pee, they spin up auto vaccines, you take them. I didn’t inquire further because they do not offer the treatment currently, but surprised how similar it sounded.
 
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@Nuno i contacted a place in dallas who seemed to do the same thing as markov, interesting that some places are doing similar treatment.

although i’m not sure how close it was. But the coordinator said you pee, they spin up auto vaccines, you take them. I didn’t inquire further because they do not offer the treatment currently, but surprised how similar it sounded.
Could you share their contact? I am trying to collect the most info possible in these autovaccine treatments. It seems that this is not new, but since it's not some pill that makes millions for pharmas, it's not getting enough attention
 

Carl

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There's no real evidence that ME is an infectious agent.
Clearly you have not read Daniel Vipond's research.
https://ueaeprints.uea.ac.uk/id/eprint/70522/
I can assure you that it is a pathogenic micro-organism in the digestive system which causes the increase in the digestive permeability which causes the inflammation and autoimmunity, histamine release, IBS due to the increase in permeability of the transverse colon, energy problems <-cytokines release, blood pressure problems, hormonal problems caused by partial destruction of the pituitary gland plus damage to somewhere else which I won't name. It's all connected to the pathogen(s) which cause ME/CFS.
[EDIT] But there is no specific pathogen, it can be any of a long list of pathogens because many different micro-organisms can cause ME/CFS. It's the location where they attack which is important and what effects that has.
 

Wishful

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Clearly you have not read Daniel Vipond's research.
Based on 17 severe house-bound patients, and the abstract just says that there's a correlation, not that a pathogen is a direct cause of ME or even of ME symptoms. It sounds like the found mixed results too, so it's pretty far from a clear correlation.

My ME doesn't have any significant gastrointestinal symptoms or sensitivities, so I see no evidence that a gut microorganism is involved.

I'd say it is a bit obvious at this point that there's an underlying pathogenic cause triggering the mechanism of ME/CFS.
No, pathogens may be the most common trigger for ME, but not necessarily the only ones. I believe that it's activation of the immune system, from whatever cause, that triggers the ME state, and that the ME state can be self-perpetuating without any pathogens involved.
 

Wishful

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Regarding the "ME is due to a pathogen' hypothesis: have there been any reported cases of ME being contagious? I haven't heard of any. If ME was caused by a pathogen, it should be possible to infect a lab animal with it. The absence of that evidence seems to be a fairly strong argument against ME being due to a pathogen.
 

Living Dead

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How often does this autovaccine need to be used?

Also, did anyone get the precise instructions on how to prepare the vaccine?
 

Living Dead

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Regarding the "ME is due to a pathogen' hypothesis: have there been any reported cases of ME being contagious? I haven't heard of any.
https://www.massmecfs.org/more-resources-for-me-cfs/119-can-blood-transfusions-cause-cfids
Expressing his concern that ME/CFS might be contagious, the patient asked the doctor about the possibility of infecting others through casual contact. "I don't think so," Dr. De Meirleir answered. "But blood products can transmit it; we are sure of that. We have a rather large number of CFS patients who became ill immediately after transfusion."
 

lenora

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Hello @Living Dead & @Wishful.....interesting, very interesting. I fell ill after I had a very difficult surgery involving the spinal cord and had a transfusion. I wasn't in great shape before the surgery, but was definitely on the really bad side afterwards I was also fighting off two viruses, one from the hospital and the other brought home by my very worried husband. .

Later, when I had brain surgery, I was my own donor....but they never picked it up and it sat at room temp. all weekend. The neurosurgeon was very upset about it & fortunately we managed without a transfusion. How many people lie when being paid for blood donation anyway? I've never donated blood since I had the transfusion. (Not that I've felt like it anyway.) Yours, Lenora.
 
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Pyrrhus

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See also:

Prevalence of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Chronic Fatigue Within Families of CFS Patients
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...atigue-within-families-of-cfs-patients.46305/
Significant differences were seen between the prevalence of CFS in all groups of family members relative to the published community prevalence of 0.422% (spouses/partners: 3.2%, p < 0.001; offspring: 5.1%, p < .001; parents and siblings: 1.1%, p < 0.02; second and third degree blood relatives 0.8%, p < 0.02). The prevalence of CFS was higher in genetically unrelated household contacts and in nonresident genetic relatives than in the community, indicating that both household contact and genetic relationship are risk factors for CFS.
and:

I have had CFS for 6 years and my wife just developed it too
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ears-and-my-wife-just-developed-it-too.81560/
This feels surreal to type. And I have actually been in denial for a while. But I can no longer deny that my wife now also has CFS. Her illness mirrors mine to a T. We have seen every doc in every specialty, virtually all the tests come back normal, as they did for me. We share so many little specific symptoms. It’s obvious to me that we are suffering from the same disease.
 

Wishful

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The paper about blood transfusions says: "As viruses and possibly other micro-organisms seem to be able to trigger an acute onset of CFS". That's 'trigger', not 'cause'. It doesn't mean that the ME state is maintained by a pathogen, or that removing the pathogen would remove the ME state. Pathogens may trigger ME, and ongoing infections can worsen some ME symptoms, but nothing shows that they are part of the core dysfunction that is ME.

An increased prevalence in families shows a link, but doesn't indicate that a common pathogen is involved. Likewise for outbreaks: a pathogen might have been the common trigger, but maybe some pathogens are more effective at triggering ME than others, or there might have been some environmental factor that made the victims more susceptible to triggering.

The doctor who believes that ME is due to a bacteria in the kidneys should inject a sample of the bacteria into rat (or other appropriate lab animal) kidneys and see if they develop the ME state.
 

Wishful

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Bacterial toxins might be leaking from the gut into the blood stream, i dont think that would be contagious.
The bacterial species would be transmissible under the right conditions (poor hygiene, untreated water used on crops). Also, if ME was due to a specific pathogen, we'd all have it, and that should have shown up from research.

The pathogen hypothesis also doesn't fit well with the existence of rapid temporary remissions. Infections don't vanish over the space of minutes, remain gone for hours, then reappear at full strength over a space of minutes. There might be ways for that to occur, but those hypotheses are less likely than others.