Gut bacteria tied to COVID-19 severity, immune response ....

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If gut bacteria is this important in COVID, particularly in long-haul COVID (so similar in its symptoms to ME) how important is it in ME? I think that it’s a mistake to dismiss its potential, or its reality in this illness, as I've read that quite a few of us in these threads tend to do ….

Gut bacteria tied to disease severity, immune response; high mental health toll seen in ICUs
https://news.yahoo.com/gut-bacteria-tied-disease-severity-204303033.html

Gut bacteria tied to COVID-19 severity, immune response

"The microscopic organisms living in our intestines may influence the severity of COVID-19 and the body's immune response to it, and could account for lingering symptoms, researchers reported on Monday in the journal Gut. They found that the gut microorganisms in COVID-19 patients were very different from those in uninfected individuals. "COVID patients lack certain good bacteria known to regulate our immune system," said Dr. Siew Ng of The Chinese University of Hong Kong.

The presence of an abnormal assortment of gut bacteria, or "dysbiosis," persists after the virus is gone and could play a role in the long-lasting symptoms that plague some patients, she said. Her team has developed an oral formula of live bacteria known as probiotics and a special capsule to protect the organisms until they reach the gut. "Compared with patients on standard care, our pilot clinical study showed that more COVID patients who received our microbiome immunity formula achieved complete symptom resolution," Ng said, adding that those who got it had significantly reduced markers for inflammation in their blood, increased favorable bacteria in their stool and they developed neutralizing antibodies to the virus."
 

ljimbo423

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The presence of an abnormal assortment of gut bacteria, or "dysbiosis," persists after the virus is gone and could play a role in the long-lasting symptoms that plague some patients, she said.
Good find Yippee. I think it might be disrupted gut bacteria or dysbiosis, from EBV infections and other viral infections, that often triggers ME/CFS too.

As well as antibiotic treatment for Lyme Disease that causes many cases of "Chronic Lyme" or "Post Treatment Lyme Disease Syndrome". Which I think are usually ME/CFS. Antibiotics, while they have their place, are well known to cause dysbiosis.
 

Wolfcub

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Thank you for such an excellent thread @YippeeKi YOW !!

My own gut wasn't too great about a month before I got Covid. Then it went off again from about late May/early June and has been up and down since.

But....the really weird thing is....when I was hit with Covid my gut was absolutely perfect!! And was so while I was recovering and convalescing. Now WHY?

I wondered if the reason might have been the herbal medicine regime I stuck to through the virus, plus the high dose vitamin C. However, I tried later in the summer, to repeat the same treatment to find out if it helped....and it didn't.
Meanwhile I couldn't actually fault my own immune response to Covid. It did a splendid job (which surely makes no sense??)

But I guess there have to be some weirdos in the ME/CFS camp? :wide-eyed: Like me?
 
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Thank you for posting that additional infor.

Two observations: 1) It's unclear what the composition of the microbiome was prior to COVID infection, so it leaves the door open to several different interpretations of the findings, tho I'm assuming that there was no microbiome testing prior to infection ..... 2) I know this isnt PC, but the fact that there was a huge host of contributors to the study (too many cooks spoil the soup), and all of them were from the same University (The Chinese University of Hong Kong), except for one, makes groupthink a possibility. Not sure that makes any difference, but I know that there can be enormous group pressure to coe to similar conclusions as the study leader(s).
 
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But I guess there have to be some weirdos in the ME/CFS camp? :wide-eyed: Like me?
Like all of us ..... it's why this illness is so hard to treat, diagnose, or find a universal treament for. It expresses in all of us idiosyncratically, and our reactions to things that were of enormous help to some are completely the opposite, and vice versa to things that didnt help some of us at all but seem to help us ....

Go know :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :bang-head::bang-head: .....
 

sometexan84

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From the study...

"The study showed that patients with COVID-19 had higher numbers of certain bacteria, including Ruminococcus gnavus, Ruminococcus torques, and Bacteroides dorei. R. gnavus, for example, is a bacterium associated with inflammatory bowel disease."

My levels are all high here too.

1611019261885.png

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"They had lower counts of Bifidobacterium adolescentis, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii, and Eubacterium rectale. These species, as the authors explain, have “immunomodulatory potential.”

Non-existent (100% depleted)
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In fact, my gut microbiota was way too low on Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus. Both of those you want to be plentiful and diverse.

Couple of notables...

Lactobacillus reuteri – I was 100% depleted in this. L. reuteri can stimulate IFN-gamma production, it produces antimicrobials, is able to inhibit the colonization of pathogenic microbes, benefits the host immune system, can reduce the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines while promoting regulatory T cell development and function, can ameliorate inflammatory diseases in gut
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917019/

Immunoflora Paraprobiotic (Lactococcus lactis (JCM 5805) strain Plasma (LC-Plasma) with Larch Arabinogalactan (Larix spp.)
  • Induce type I (IFN-α) and type III interferons
Lactobacillus plantarum (I was 100% depleted)
  • Induces Type I interferon (IFN-β)
Pediococcus pentosaceus (Had none)
  • Induces Type I interferon
Bacteroides fragilis (Was somewhat low)
  • Induces Type I interferon (IFN-β)
Lactobacillus rhamnosus CRL 1505 and 1506 (I was 100% depleted)
  • Induces Type I interferon (IFN-α)
Lactobacillus casei strain Shirota (LCS) (I was 100% depleted)
  • Induces Type I interferon (IFN-α)

This is a Probiotic... Lactococcus lactis strain Plasma (LC-Plasma) is a synonym for Lactococcus lactis subsp. JCM 5805 – Induces Type I and III IFN, activates NK cells, increases cytotoxicity of NK cells, anti-viral properties, stimulates host-cell immune defense and adaptive immunity
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6006794/

I'm actually taking the LC-Plasma (above) and two others to improve my gut.

There's a million articles out there on gut bacteria, immune system, the good the bad the ugly. But it will be more helpful if you have your gut bacteria test done so you can see.
 

5vforest

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Too tired to read study. Do they have evidence of a causal relationship, or just a "link"? What if COVID itself is wiping out the gut bacteria?

As well as antibiotic treatment for Lyme Disease that causes many cases of "Chronic Lyme" or "Post Treatment Lyme Disease Syndrome".
Not sure this theory holds up. Unfortunately there are many people sick with these illnesses who haven't yet been treated with abx.