Gut Bacteria Protect Brain from Viruses

Wishful

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https://newatlas.com/gut-bacteria-microbiome-virus-infection-immune-brain-degeneration/60623/

The research shows that gut bacteria enhances microglial activity via TLR4. Early stage research.

Personally, I don't take this to mean that gut bacteria are responsible for ME. They might shift a balance so that we're slightly more likely to switch into the ME state, or slightly more likely to keep healthy people from shifting into ME state. I doubt that a dose of the right bacteria will cure us. It might improve the effectiveness of a treatment/cure.
 

Archie

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Amazing ! this is the best news i read for long time . I think by healing gut issues ( which so many today have ) might help in the route to better health . Thanks Wishful :)
 

Sidny

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I always figured the massive doses of antibiotics I was given at onset had something to do with me never recovering. Doctors love to throw antibiotics at problems they can’t quite identify and if that happens when someone is going through a primary infection with EBV or a newly acquired enterovirus this research proves the administration of Abx during a new infection just spells bad news. (Potential triggering of ME state or as the article highlights Multiple sclerosis)
 
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bertiedog

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Yesterday I looked up research on L Plantarum and there seems to be good research which shows it not only kills pathogenic bacteria in the gut but also in the brain it increases hippocampus brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) which can help with depression.

It also helps to heal the gut lining plus its an antioxidant too so I reckon we should all be giving this a try. This ones survives the GI tract too.

Pam
 
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This article was posted on the same page as the link above, and suggests fecal transplantation may be the only way to reintroduce missing gut bacteria.

https://newatlas.com/gut-bacteria-antibiotics-long-term-effects/56968/

I've avoided antibiotics most of my life since: 16 years old. I've hardly EVER taken them. Perhaps 3 times.

I've eatten expensive organic food most of my life and don't eat in restaurants hardly ever.

Working on gut intensely for the last year, it now seems most of the progress I had made is missing in action.
 

Hip

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The study itself is here. What the study seems to be saying is that without the constant but low-level pro-inflammatory signal that comes from the presence of bacteria in the gut, microglia in the brain are not able to properly activate themselves when a viral infection arrives in the brain.

So the pro-inflammatory signal from your everyday ongoing gut bacterial infection helps prime the microglia, such that when a virus appears in the brain, the microglia can respond to it.

This observation may just be a simple example of the known phenomenon of immune priming in action.

In brief, immune priming is where a previous exposure to an inflammatory signal makes immune cells such as microglia more sensitive and more ready to activate when they encounter a second inflammatory signal in the future (such as the inflammatory signal that a viral infection would produce).

It's known that TLR2, TLR3 and TLR4 are involved in microglial priming.

See my posts here, here and here for info on immune priming.
 
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I find this very plausible. But I always wonder about why we have long-lasting gut dysbiosis. What shocks me is not that our guts get out of balance but that that state of imbalance is so enduring.

What is it that prevents the ecosystem in there from returning to normal, when it is known that healthy people's microbiomes are constantly in flux, but rarely pathogenic?

I have long held one theory, which is that a change in the viral content of the gut might be keeping certain bacterial populations in check. Phages are viruses that infect bacteria, and are common in the gut. Introducing a certain bacteriophage into the gut big might lead to permanent changes in bacterial populations. Scientists know next to nothing about phages.

Another theory might be that the gut itself has mechanisms to control and modulate its gut bug population, controlled by the autonomic nervous system, and the brain stem. If our brain stems were infected ( a la Elzakker) or compressed ( a la Brea) the signals going to the gut might get screwy and cause the gut to maintain conditions that allow a dysbiotic microbiome to thrive.

I have known for a ong time that paracetamol reduces PENE in me and I found recently that one of its effects is reducing microglial activation. I'm certainly open to the idea that microglial activation is a part of our trouble.
 

Hip

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Another theory might be that the gut itself has mechanisms to control and modulate its gut bug population, controlled by the autonomic nervous system, and the brain stem. If our brain stems were infected ( a la Elzakker) or compressed ( a la Brea) the signals going to the gut might get screwy and cause the gut to maintain conditions that allow a dysbiotic microbiome to thrive.
I find that a plausible theory.

Dr Ross Hauser thinks compression (and thus dysfunction) of the vagus nerve can cause symptoms such as POTS, MCAS, anxiety and leaky gut. See this video at 2:24.

If vagus issues can lead to leaky gut, then you may in turn get more LPS into the body. If you get more LPS in to your body, that can cause immune priming, but paradoxically it can also cause endotoxin tolerance — where the inflammatory response to LPS becomes diminished with repeated exposure to LPS.

So if you now have a reduced inflammatory response to LPS, then perhaps this might lead to gut dysbiosis, as the immune system starts to ignore Gram-negative bacteria (the bacteria that produce LPS).
 

percyval577

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I have long held one theory, which is that a change in the viral content of the gut might be keeping certain bacterial populations in check. Phages are viruses that infect bacteria, and are common in the gut. Introducing a certain bacteriophage into the gut big might lead to permanent changes in bacterial populations. Scientists know next to nothing about phages.
Another theory that has been tried is, I think, that the host metabolites would serve or would not serve special bacteria, but I hardly remember. Another approach says that viruses on the gut might do something on a normal basis, if I remember rightly.


There are some enthusiastic reviews on the gut microbiome (though I havn´t read them already). Also:

The Gut Microbiota Modulates Energy Metabolism in the Hibernating Bear Ursus Arctos. Sommer et al 2018
Host Remodeling of the Gut Microbiome and Metabolic Changes during Pregnancy. Koren et al 2012
 

Wishful

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Ever more interacting feedback loops, with various mechanisms evolved to try to keep them balanced. I'm less surprised that we have diseases like ME than I am that we don't have more of them. Perhaps there's a bacteria/phage/t-cell balance that's developed a mutation that puts us out of balance, rather than keeping us in balance. I still don't think it's likely that the microbiome is the source of ME, or a good target for a treatment/cure for ME, but could be a factor that determines types and severities of symptoms, and sensitivity to various factors.
 

ljimbo423

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There's a lot of research, that continues to grow every year, connecting the gut microbiome to both mitochondrial dysfunction and neuroinflammation.

Although changing the gut microbiome can be extremely difficult, as I have learned in the last 2 years. Treating it, has brought me from moderate to mostly mild CFS in the last 2 years. This is with daily, fairly aggressive treatments.

I take and have taken, Probiotics, prebiotics, the equivalent of 12-14 grams a day of antibacterial herbs and a low carb diet, daily for 2 years, to get the improvement I have.

Almost every symptom I have has improved, some fairly dramatically. I'm lifting light weights now (just arm presses) 12 reps per arm every other day.

I do a small stretching routine every day. Walk 1/2 to 1 1/2 miles 2-3 times a week, in addition to 5-7 hours a day of physical activity and I continue to slowly improve.

This is just one guys experience. It's like they say though "if it works, don't fix it!":):lol:

gut microbiota neuroinflammation

gut microbiota mitochondrial dysfunction
 
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There's a lot of research, that continues to grow every year, connecting the gut microbiome to both mitochondrial dysfunction and neuroinflammation.

Although changing the gut microbiome can be extremely difficult, as I have learned in the last 2 years. Treating it, has brought me from moderate to mostly mild CFS in the last 2 years. This is with daily, fairly aggressive treatments.

I take and have taken, Probiotics, prebiotics, the equivalent of 12-14 grams a day of antibacterial herbs and a low carb diet, daily for 2 years, to get the improvement I have.

Almost every symptom I have has improved, some fairly dramatically. I'm lifting light weights now (just arm presses) 12 reps per arm every other day.

I do a small stretching routine every day. Walk 1/2 to 1 1/2 miles 2-3 times a week, in addition to 5-7 hours a day of physical activity and I continue to slowly improve.

This is just one guys experience. It's like they say though "if it works, don't fix it!":):lol:

gut microbiota neuroinflammation

gut microbiota mitochondrial dysfunction
That Sounds interesting. Did you have gut issues before the onset of ME as well?
Have you tried FMT or considering it?

Thanks,
 

ljimbo423

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That Sounds interesting. Did you have gut issues before the onset of ME as well?
Have you tried FMT or considering it?

Thanks,
I think I did have gut issues before my ME but to be honest, I really can't remember, my ME started 30 years ago.:)

I haven't tried FMT for several reasons. One reason is, I think it would be hard to find someone really knowledgeable in doing a FMT.

I think the donor has to be highly screened as well as a very powerful antibiotic given just before the transplant, for it to be really effective. Maybe followed by high levels of prebiotics, to feed the new guys on the block.:)

I think pathogenic bacterial bio-films in the gut are often extremely difficult to get rid of, so that they don't come back. One study on Autistic children, most of which have significant dysbiosis and IBS.

Was highly successful, using Vancomycin before the FMT. I also think the FMT's were given daily for a few weeks or so.

I think that FMT can be extremely effective, IF a very good protocol is followed by a very knowledgeable doctor. Otherwise, it most likely would be a waste of time and money for most people with chronic disease.
 
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@Hip @Mary @ljimbo423 @Sushi We have research which shows that post exercise MECFS patient have bacteria in the blood which takes lot of time to clear and hence recovery is delayed (crash period) and may be this could be due to immune priming discussed by Hip. Also, I believe it is not only restricted to physical exertion but mental exertion as well. Has specific diet like no dairy, low carbs or low histamine helped anyone. After starting intermittent fasting, avoiding wheat my pain (trigger point muscular and nerve pain) and depression has worsened. I was better earlier but may be this pain and depression could be part of small recovery (worsening before improving). I have hormone linked mast cell activation which doesn't lead to any visible rxn but only pain, burning in legs/arms. I crash after shower and going to washroom. I am bed/home bound. Flavonoids help to certain extent but worried that long term use may lead to cancer. Can someone please advice on diet or other strategies? I have tried ribose, BCAA but nothing helps.

Regards,
Np
 

Mary

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I believe it is not only restricted to physical exertion but mental exertion as well.
I agree! And I think many here agree with you about this as well. Also, stress and social interaction increase my likelihood of crashing.

I don't have MCAS. No specific diet has helped me that I know of, but I've eaten very little wheat, very little sugar, low carb, for many years. So I don't know how I would be if I ate lots of sugar, wheat, etc. but I'm sure I'd be worse off!

Flavonoids help to certain extent but worried that long term use may lead to cancer.
I did a brief google search of flavonoids and cancer, and everything I saw said that flavonoids tend to have anti-cancer properties. Why do you think that long-term use may lead to cancer? Is there a specific product you were taking?

I have tried ribose, BCAA but nothing helps.
I'm sorry to hear this! BCAAs in particular have helped me a lot, though I know they don't help everyone. What dose did you take? and did you take them with or without food?

Other things that have helped me are B1, P-5-P (B-6), methylfolate and methylcobalamin, though we are all different. Some people need a lot of B2, whereas I react badly to extra B2 (more than is in my B complex). I also need to take extra potassium daily. I'm not recommending these things for you - you'd have to find out if they are what you need - I'm just listing some of the things that made a significant difference for me.

Also creatine hydrochloride helps me a little with energy and endurance. See this post by '@Hip for more info on the benefits of creatine hydrochloride vs. creatine monohydrate. I haven't had any bad side effects since starting the creatine hydrochloride, am taking a lowish dose, 1000 mg. a day.

And check out this post, also by @Hip, about PEM busters.

I also periodically need adrenal support, especially when stressed, and take an adrenal glandular by Standard Process (drenamin) which helps a lot. At one time many years ago (before PEM set in) I was very weak, and my chiropractor who does muscle testing found that my adrenals were wiped out (to use a technical term! ;))
He gave me Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process - I had to take quite a high dose - but within a few days my energy started returning. I generally get by now with a low maintenance dose.

You might try doing a thread under the Mast Cell Disorders subforum for help with your MCAS.
 

ljimbo423

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We have research which shows that post exercise MECFS patient have bacteria in the blood which takes lot of time to clear and hence recovery is delayed (crash period)
I think this might be the study you are talking about. The 72 hour timeline to clear the bacteria that translocate from the gut, fits perfectly with my PEM. Which I get 48 hours after too much physical activity and only lasts 24 hours. Which is 72 hours in total.

Although I use to have constant PEM and flu-like symptoms, when I was mostly bedridden for several years. I think that's because I had constant higher levels of lipopolysaccharides leaking into my bloodstream, from my gut, causing constant symptoms.

Doing almost anything made my symptoms worse. As my health improves, my symptoms, including my PEM are becoming milder. I'm now about a 6 on the scale used here at PR.

In patients with post-exertional malaise, significant worsening of symptoms occurs following physical exertion and exercise challenge serves as a useful method for identifying biomarkers for exertion intolerance.

Evidence suggests that intestinal dysbiosis and systemic responses to gut microorganisms may play a role in the symptomology of ME/CFS. As such, we hypothesized that post-exertion worsening of ME/CFS symptoms could be due to increased bacterial translocation from the intestine into the systemic circulation.

To test this hypothesis, we collected symptom reports and blood and stool samples from ten clinically characterized ME/CFS patients and ten matched healthy controls before and 15 minutes, 48 hours, and 72 hours after a maximal exercise challenge. Microbiomes of blood and stool samples were examined.

Stool sample microbiomes differed between ME/CFS patients and healthy controls in the abundance of several major bacterial phyla. Following maximal exercise challenge, there was an increase in relative abundance of 6 of the 9 major bacterial phyla/genera in ME/CFS patients from baseline to 72 hours post-exercise compared to only 2 of the 9 phyla/genera in controls (p = 0.005).

There was also a significant difference in clearance of specific bacterial phyla from blood following exercise with high levels of bacterial sequences maintained at 72 hours post-exercise in ME/CFS patients versus clearance in the controls. These results provide evidence for a systemic effect of an altered gut microbiome in ME/CFS patients compared to controls.

Upon exercise challenge, there were significant changes in the abundance of major bacterial phyla in the gut in ME/CFS patients not observed in healthy controls. In addition, compared to controls clearance of bacteria from the blood was delayed in ME/CFS patients following exercise.

These findings suggest a role for an altered gut microbiome and increased bacterial translocation following exercise in ME/CFS patients that may account for the profound post-exertional malaise experienced by ME/CFS patients.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684203/


Has specific diet like no dairy, low carbs or low histamine helped anyone.
I'm sorry to say that a low carb diet, other diets and probiotics, did almost nothing for me. It wasn't until I was able to add in antibiotic herbs, that I really started to slowly feel better and has taken me from a 2.5-3 to a 6, in the last 2 years.

I have learned that nothing short of a low carb diet, probiotics, prebiotics and antibiotic herbs, taken long term, will effectively treat my CFS.

For myself, their is VERY, VERY little doubt in my mind that my CFS is caused by my gut.
 

Hip

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For myself, their is VERY, VERY little doubt in my mind that my CFS is caused by my gut.
To have such "VERY, VERY little doubt" in this circumstance is very, very bad scientific thinking.

You have taken a series of herbs which you found improved your ME/CFS. You state those herbs are: basil, olive leaf extract, ceylon cinnamon, thyme, oil of oregano, neem, cumin and clove powder. I am not doubting that these herbs did make a substantial improvement to your health.

However, then you suddenly jump to the conclusion that "my CFS is caused by my gut".

But your conclusion is a leap of faith. Any given herb (or drug, or supplement) will have dozens if not hundreds of effects in the body. Thus if you benefit from a herb, it's very hard to know why, unless you investigate further with lots of medical tests to try to determine what might be happening. And even then it is hard to figure out what the mechanism of benefit might actually be.

The initial reason you took those herbs may have been for their antibacterial effects. But the reason they improved your health may be due to something else entirely. That's just how these things work.

If you take some time to investigate the multiple mechanism of action of each of the herbs you are taking (which may take many months of intensive research, if you are up to that), then you will see that these herbs in addition to antibacterial effects, also have immunomodulatory effects, antioxidant effects, anti-inflammatory effects, antiviral effects, and countless other physiological effects.

I am not denying that it could be the antibacterial effects of these herbs which are helping you. But nobody can be sure of that, so to proclaim you have "VERY, VERY little doubt" is at odds with reasoned thinking.



I had a similar situation: I found great improvements in my ME/CFS from taking high-dose selenium. I originally took selenium because I read some papers indicating it had an antiviral effect against coxsackievirus B, which is a virus I have as an active infection. However, the reason selenium works so well for me may in fact be nothing to do with its antiviral effects. Selenium has hundreds of effects in the body, and the benefits I experienced could come from any of these other effects. It's just a fact of life that you often cannot easily know why a particular medication is helping you.
 
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You state those herbs are: basil, olive leaf extract, ceylon cinnamon, thyme, oil of oregano, neem, cumin and clove powder
I take Chinese traditional herbs....several of the herbs above are contra-indicated in my case because they increase HEAT. I use herbs that avoid- the heat component. But thats me, and the diagnosis of my severe Yin Deficiency.
 

ljimbo423

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To have such "VERY, VERY little doubt" in this circumstance is very, very bad scientific thinking.

You are right, my view isn't scientific. The truth is, as I see it. That everybody will view my experience from there own perspective. People that think chronic lyme disease is the primary cause of CFS will see me treating that.

People that think it's mold, will probably see how I have been treating that. The same thing holds true for viruses etc.

I have read posts here of people that say they are treating xyz and improving. When I read there posts, I see they are also on a low carb diet and taking herbs that are antibacterial. So guess what I think? Yup, I think they are actually treating they're gut.

So I think I see your view.