Gut Bacteria Linked to Depression Identified

Jackb23

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“In their manuscript entitled ‘The neuroactive potential of the human gut microbiota in quality of life and depression’ Jeroen Raes and his team studied the relation between gut bacteria and quality of life and depression. The authors combined faecal microbiome data with general practitioner diagnoses of depression from 1,054 individuals enrolled in the Flemish Gut Flora Project. They identified specific groups of microorganisms that positively or negatively correlated with mental health. The authors found that two bacterial genera, Coprococcus and Dialister, were consistently depleted in individuals with depression, regardless of antidepressant treatment. The results were validated in an independent cohort of 1,063 individuals from the Dutch LifeLinesDEEP cohort and in a cohort of clinically depressed patients at the University Hospitals Leuven, Belgium.”


“The first population-level study on the link between gut bacteria and mental health identifies specific gut bacteria linked to depression and provides evidence that a wide range of gut bacteria can produce neuroactive compounds. Jeroen Raes (VIB-KU Leuven) and his team published these results today in the scientific journal Nature Microbiology.”


https://neurosciencenews.com/depression-gut-bacteria-10685/

 

ljimbo423

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Thanks for the link @Jackb23, good info!

Butyrate-producing Faecalibacterium and Coprococcus bacteria were consistently associated with higher quality of life indicators.

Together with Dialister, Coprococcus spp. were also depleted in depression, even after correcting for the confounding effects of antidepressants.
All the more reason for me to keep eating my butter. :) Butter has about 3-4% butyric acid or butyrate. Which is about 500 mg butyrate per serving, which is one tablespoon.
 

Jackb23

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Hoping for someone to now study the mechanism and pathways that these bacteria’s travel in- all the way up until they reach the brain. Would be interesting if their byproducts found themselves involved in the kynurenine pathway in any way. Would also merge several different fields of illness/study and potentially help our funding second handedly.
 

bjl218

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Jackb23

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This is certainly encouraging. Now hopefully someone will do a follow-up study in which they give depressed patients these probiotics to see if it effectively treats depression. Interestingly, there have already been studies on the effect of butyrate on depression:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4368891/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25233278
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006899317305383

I don’t want to assume, but would supplementing with Sodium Butyrate be of any benefit? Has anyone tried?
 
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Dialister and Coprococcus, so how do we get these dudes back?

They are not part of any probiotic on the market.
This part has frustrated me: I don't see the desirable species in the Probiotics that are reported as favorable or helpful in our case.

To which I describe the following: I have been able to almost reverse the evidence of IBS-d by taking four chinese herbs for that. I am taking no probiotics. My IBS-d corrected within nearly 36 hours of starting these herbs, to some: remarkably improved state. I deny placebo effect. I'm pretty convinced: I would not see that type of rapid improvement.

Again I repeated: I took no probiotics. So how did this miraculous change occur so quickly from JUST 4 herbs?

So next: I report I simply did not take the herbs for 36 hours. And it reverted to Pre-Herb IBS-d...(I can tell it was heading back to default). So: to me this is saying the Gut Bacteria ARE NOT the main issue. Because I just don't believe they can be changed or modified that quickly (within 36 hours).

So: I am frustrated, not news here, because these herbs ARE IGNORED. It makes me sad.
They are such a Gift.
 

Thinktank

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This part has frustrated me: I don't see the desirable species in the Probiotics that are reported as favorable or helpful in our case.

To which I describe the following: I have been able to almost reverse the evidence of IBS-d by taking four chinese herbs for that. I am taking no probiotics. My IBS-d corrected within nearly 36 hours of starting these herbs, to some: remarkably improved state. I deny placebo effect. I'm pretty convinced: I would not see that type of rapid improvement.

Again I repeated: I took no probiotics. So how did this miraculous change occur so quickly from JUST 4 herbs?

So next: I report I simply did not take the herbs for 36 hours. And it reverted to Pre-Herb IBS-d...(I can tell it was heading back to default). So: to me this is saying the Gut Bacteria ARE NOT the main issue. Because I just don't believe they can be changed or modified that quickly (within 36 hours).

So: I am frustrated, not news here, because these herbs ARE IGNORED. It makes me sad.
They are such a Gift.
which herbs are you taking?
 
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It's entirely possible if not probable that the symptoms of IBS-D have more than one root cause and/or that the herbs @Rufous McKinney is taking (I'd also like to know what they are) have the same down-stream effects as certain probiotics.
I will return with the answer: I have to look it up again....sorry. My herbalist just hands me the formula.

I reported this here some time ago but who knows where that thread is.....Oh: FOUND IT (under White Tongue discoloration).

so here:
Here is a description of Four Herbs: these are the four I am taking and they are wonderful. You can still have an adverse event, like when stressed out.

"When unified in a formula, herbs share the responsibility of the intended treatment goal. One of the formulas that is used to treat IBS includes a base of four herbs: bai shao (white peony), bai zhu (white atractylodes), chen pi (citrus peel) and fang feng (siler). TCM pathology uses terminology that sounds unfamiliar to western medical concepts, however it is simply a different way of explaining the same action of the compound. The purpose of each herb in the formula is defined by it’s own individual actions and plays a part in the general purpose of the formula. For example, white peony is an herb that ‘soothes the liver,’ in other words it relieves stress. To take one herb alone for IBS would be inadequate so there is the addition of the others. White atractylodes has the action of ‘tonifying the spleen,’ in other words it helps nutrients to absorb in the small intestine. Citrus peel supports the digestive function by ‘transforming dampness,’ in other words it reduces abdominal bloating. And lastly, siler has the function of ‘expelling wind,’ in other words, it relieves diarrhea."

Note the terminology above is in reference to the Qi. Liver Qi, Spleen Qi..not those organs per se.

______

My diagnosis is severe Yin Deficiency (chinese view this as genetic in me, a red head). So these herbs complement and are compatable with that diagnosis. (Yang is overheated) . I find this amusing as we think of loose stools as too much water. Its actually more: Too Much WIND.

thats how they pretty much explain whats wrong with me. So their herbs help me alot when not much of anything else does (I do also love my LDN).

alot of wind here. It accounts for considerable weirdness in joints, in the spine. It blows around. It tends to shift and move.

dampness, we might think of more as mucus. Its somewhat related to that. Lymph, our friend Mr. Eppstein and Ms Barr.
 
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It's entirely possible if not probable that the symptoms of IBS-D have more than one root cause and/or that the herbs @Rufous McKinney is taking
So yes, I agree cause is multi-faceted. Using the CTM approach, the Liver Qi is stagnent and can harbor emotional stuff also. The liver is clearly involved here.

Its of course possible these herbs are also nourishing desirable micro-flora. I am just pointing out that they worked here so quickly, its hard to: explain that as a new crop of happier gut crittters.
 
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@Jackb23, @ljimbo423, @Rufous McKinney

"They identified specific groups of microorganisms that positively or negatively correlated with mental health. The authors found that two bacterial genera, Coprococcus and Dialister, were consistently depleted in individuals with depression, regardless of antidepressant treatment. "


I wonder what "consistently" means?
 

ljimbo423

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The quotes below are from the link you gave-

At the moment it isn’t known whether the abundance of these species is a cause or side-effect of depression. However, if you wanted to increase the population of these species you would probably need to address their environment (e.g. in terms of the host physiology, diet and the balance of other bacterial species), rather than simply try to introduce them as a sort of probiotic.
Interestingly, Coprococcus (and other fermenters) have also been found reduced in children with autism (Kang et al., 2013) and, as a producer of butyrate (the salt of a four-carbon carboxylic acid), its presence is likely to suppress gut inflammation.
From what these quotes say, as I understand them, to increase Coprococcus you would need to add prebiotic fibers into your diet. Prebiotics are "fermentable" fibers, that feed this type of bacteria.

So it’s quite possible that the variation in Dialister abundance identified by Valles-Colomer et al. simply correlates with Coprococcus because it either requires similar resources and/or conditions, or even because its growth may be regulated by something produced by Coprococcus. It could well be the case that you wouldn’t really want to increase the abundance of Dialister deliberately.
As far as Dialister goes, the quote above says not to increase them.
 

ljimbo423

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"They identified specific groups of microorganisms that positively or negatively correlated with mental health. The authors found that two bacterial genera, Coprococcus and Dialister, were consistently depleted in individuals with depression, regardless of antidepressant treatment. "


I wonder what "consistently" means?
From google-
in every case or on every occasion; invariably.