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Gut bacteria causing autoimmune diseases

tiredowl

Senior Member
Messages
170
Location
Norway
Definitely a link. But why is it so hard to kill the pathogenic gut bacteria, and after it's killed why do symptoms still persist?
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,658
Location
Alberta
It's likely a factor for some ME/CFS victims, but not all. Food poisoning (flushing out bacteria) seemed to be what cured the type IV food sensitivity I developed when my ME first started, but didn't alter my ME symptoms. I did plenty of dietary changes, had antibiotics and probiotics, and none of that has any effect on my ME symptoms, so I'd say that my evidence is that gut bacteria aren't a factor in my ME.

My guess for you is that gut issues are triggering immune system activation, which makes your ME worse. Another guess is that if you solved your gut issues completely, you'd still have some level of ME symptoms. Many factors can make ME symptoms temporarily worse, but they aren't maintaining the ME state. ME maintains itself. Once ME is triggered, it's very difficult to return us to normal function.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,658
Location
Alberta
It's hard to completely eradicate a bacteria species because the gut has such an enormous surface area with places to stick/hide. Think of trying to eradicate invasive weeds while trying hard to not harm the rest of the environment. While I had my type IV food sensitivity, I'd had several courses of antibiotics (several types) for tooth infections. None of the antibiotics affected my sensitivity (or ME symptoms). Some 'slighly off' canned coconut milk gave me a good flushing out, and that seemed to have cured the sensitivity. I doubt that it managed to flush out every individual bad bacterium. What I think happened is that it altered my gut enough to allow good bacteria to finally overwhelm the bad bacteria. I doubt that it's a reliable repeatable treatment...

If you have gut dysbiosis and are really, really, really desperate for an improvement, you could experiment with food poisoning, although that could be dangerous, as well as inconvenient and messy. :oops: Adding probiotics, prebiotics, etc, would probably be a good idea. If I were going to experiment with food poisoning as a treatment, I'd first do research into known hazards.
 

Carl

Senior Member
Messages
357
Location
United Kingdom
It's hard to completely eradicate a bacteria species because the gut has such an enormous surface area with places to stick/hide. Think of trying to eradicate invasive weeds while trying hard to not harm the rest of the environment. While I had my type IV food sensitivity, I'd had several courses of antibiotics (several types) for tooth infections. None of the antibiotics affected my sensitivity (or ME symptoms). Some 'slighly off' canned coconut milk gave me a good flushing out, and that seemed to have cured the sensitivity. I doubt that it managed to flush out every individual bad bacterium. What I think happened is that it altered my gut enough to allow good bacteria to finally overwhelm the bad bacteria. I doubt that it's a reliable repeatable treatment...

If you have gut dysbiosis and are really, really, really desperate for an improvement, you could experiment with food poisoning, although that could be dangerous, as well as inconvenient and messy. :oops: Adding probiotics, prebiotics, etc, would probably be a good idea. If I were going to experiment with food poisoning as a treatment, I'd first do research into known hazards.
That is because you do not understand biofilms and how they dramatically promote adaption to antimicrobials. An enclosed area (biofilm), multiple layers inside the biofilm, with the outer layer sacrificing the micro-organisms, releasing their DNA so that lower layers can adapt their DNA to quickly become resistant to the antimicrobial.

There could be a factor where the antibiotic dispersed in an area where the infection was not present which further weakened the effect. That is very possible based upon where the infection is present. Only one location when attacked can cause CFS, the micro-organism is pretty much irrelevant.

These infections can be highly resistant. I have actually eliminated the biofilm and colloidal silver which destroys most micro-organisms had zero effect against them. I am looking for more antimicrobials ATM and efflux pump inhibitors for all 6 efflux pump super families which is quite a task. All because the micro-organism is not known so I have to account for just about every species. The micro-organism which causes CFS can vary widely, some people get lucky and are able to destroy it fairly easily for example CBD oil probably for much weaker micro-organisms where even the biofilm does not need to be eliminated.

BTW I do not think much of that article. Increased Digestive Permeability Syndrome aka Leaky Gut is what causes Autoimmunity and is being researched ATM by a team in the UK. They want a drug to "control" autoimmunity and not to cure it.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Definitely a link. But why is it so hard to kill the pathogenic gut bacteria, and after it's killed why do symptoms still persist?

I agree with what @Carl said- I think one MAJOR reason it is so hard to kill pathogenic bacteria is because they often live in biofilms. Bacteria that live in biofilms can be extremely hard to kill, even with the strongest antibiotics on the planet.

Both because of the biofilms and because of antibiotic resistance. Bacteria are becoming more and more resistant to antibiotics, as the years go by. They evolve and adapt to the antibiotics we have, becoming more and more resistant.

I am making slow but consistent progress with herbal antibiotics, herbs that help break up biofilms and supplements to heal my gut. They are helping tremendously! I also agree that my gut is the root cause of my CFS.

Jim
 
Messages
99
Interesting to hear that food poisoning seems to have helped Wishful.

This reminds me of other ways in which our climate-controlled, abundant-food, hygenic, and relatively benign environment has subtle unhealthful effects:
-- the hygiene hypothesis and allergies
-- Wiliam Coley's fever therapy for cancer
-- Valter Longo's research (long fasts+refeeds may initiate immune reset and pancreas beta cell regeneration)

There may be something to the adage, "What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger". ha
 
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Murph

:)
Messages
1,795
The linked article is about a researcher called Martin Kriegel.

Kriegel’s WHRY-funded study confirmed the identity of a gut bacterium called R. intestinalis, which contains bits and pieces similar to a body’s natural protein and, through a process called cross-reactivity, can be mistakenly targeted by disease-fighting immune cells in people with APS.

Kriegel’s team was able to establish evidence both in a culture dish and with human samples that for APS patients, the protein imitators within R. intestinalis confuse microbe-targeting immune cells called lymphocytes into attacking the body’s own cells.

Since the group’s first findings, they have obtained larger federal grants, shared their data at scientific meetings, prepared peer-reviewed articles for publication, and seen others follow their lead.

“Researchers are now exploring how cross-reactivity might influence the development of lupus and other autoimmune diseases,” Ruff said. “Once you get the ball rolling, it moves pretty quickly.”

...

Kriegel sees the next steps in his research on the microbiome possibly targeting specific bacteria, like R. intestinalis and others, that while generally beneficial to maintain the body’s immune, digestive, and hormonal balance could trigger an autoimmune response.

“Prevention is always best,” Kriegel said. “I can envision a treatment removing the culprit bacterium from the microbiome before people become sick.”


If the disease-causing bacteria can’t easily be eliminated or if its role in promoting health is too important, Ruff suggested researchers might find a way to induce tolerance for specific bacteria without the negative effects, in the same way parents now slowly introduce their babies to peanuts to avoid developing allergies.

My understanding of the gut microbiome had been that we were moving away from theories of a single organism making all the difference, to look more at the overall ecology. That's a far more complex problem. So the fact this guy has isolated a single problem bug suggests some of the problems in autoimmunity might be far easier to deal with!
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
813
Location
USA
There are 3 possible layers you have to cross:

#1 Biofilms
From my countless experiments, lactoferrin (or lactoferrin with xylitol) is the #1 biofilm killer. Careful with it since it is quite strong, you must remove biofilms slowly, only use what you can tolerate. For myself, it was only 1 every 3 days and then slowly built up. As the biofilms are slowly removed then the burden lightens up. Mucous membranes are particularly vulnerable to biofilm such as the gastro, sinuses etc. (Sinus infections are tough to get rid of, most likely due to the biofilm environment). Note that lactoferrin (and lysozyme) are manufactured by the body to combat biofilms and are antibiotic.

#2 Resistance (efflux pumps)
Efflux pumps are one of the methods of resistance. I have spooled through countless remedies. I had a forum participant email me about goldenseal leaf. This is not root but leaf. It has worked wonders, where others failed.

Hemp oil (e.g. Nutiva you buy at Whole Foods etc) has all the cannabinoids except THC and it is cheap ($12) and accessible. Cannabinoids stop antibiotic resistance. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pptu/got-pot-t4323231.html. ** This has been another powerhouse. I take a shot (1oz) or two. Cannabinoids are quite effective.

I would be surprised if these two did not stop resistance.

**you can check the main category which has many articles on resistance
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pptu/biofilm-busters-efflux-mdr-f15/

#3 Antibiotic Sensitivity
The last stop is antibiotic sensitivity. This means what substance kills the organism. Not all organisms are the same, diversity exists which means different antibiotics may be required. So pathogen A may respond to antibiotic X but not Y.

There are many broad spectrum herbs such as garlic, black seed, caprylic acid (coconut), neem, pomegranate, black pepper, lemongrass, oregano, marigold tea and a whole bunch of spices.

Chai tea contains 7 or 8 spices that are known to kill organisms and I also use curry powder (Sharwood's) which also contains a plethora of natural antibiotics. Most of these are broad spectrum which means they can address bacteria, protozoa, viruses, fungal/yeast etc.

Collodial silver can be useful for gram negative bacteria and some fungal strains -where it is not as effective for gram positive bacteria or protozoa. Being effective against gram negative is a big plus since gram negatives are more difficult to eradicate.

Better to use broad spectrums that layer one another. In other words, I use goldenseal leaf, hemp oil with caprylic acid, neem, black seed etc.

Note: I had tried some many antibiotics, natural and pharma with limited effect until I addressed the biofilms and the resistance. As I have addressed the infections, I have regained what was lost.

Information is for educational purposes only, please check with your healtcare professional before starting.
 
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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,658
Location
Alberta
@shoponl, I'd try those gut parasites (I forget the name) that are supposed to be beneficial for our immune systems, if it was cheap/convenient to do so, and if I thought it would actually help with ME. I usually eat carrots from the garden without more than a quick wipe, accepting that we evolved with such soil ingestion.