Guesstimating anaerobic threshold

[MeSci]

I was wondering if we could collate methods for guessing our anaerobic threshold without undergoing formal testing.

It seems that respiration rate could be one. Ability to talk normally during exertion may be another. Heart rate (variability) is another.

A combination may be the best solution.

Once we have some kind of approximation, we could use a heart rate monitor to avoid going beyond the threshold.

It would be such a useful thing to be able to do, to prevent PEM and consequent worsening of illness, and even facilitate improvement for some.

 

[Mary]

I was wondering if we could collate methods for guessing our anaerobic threshold without undergoing formal testing.

It seems that respiration rate could be one. Ability to talk normally during exertion may be another. Heart rate (variability) is another.

A combination may be the best solution.

Once we have some kind of approximation, we could use a heart rate monitor to avoid going beyond the threshold.

It would be such a useful thing to be able to do, to prevent PEM and consequent worsening of illness, and even facilitate improvement for some.

You might want to check out these threads re ameliorating PEM with baking soda (!) I was amazed to find it does help, has to do with lactic acid buildup. Here's one thread, look at especially at pone's posts:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylfolate-and-mercury-detoxing.30967/page-3

And here's another thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lase-no-pem-after-exercise.34446/#post-536994 which talks about similar things.

I'm beginning to think that keeping track of one's acidity/alkalinity via Ph paper and using sodium bicarbonate accordingly might enable one to stave off crashing. Well, I haven't managed that yet, but did reduce the severity of a crash with baking soda. I have also found, however, that the baking soda pretty much doubles my need for potassium. I have to take a lot of it! I take potassium gluconate and low-sodium V8 which has 900 mg. potassium in an 8 oz. glass. And if you google "baking soda exercise recovery" you'll find a ton of info and it seems to be somewhat applicable to CFS too --

 

[Keela Too]

I was told that a good estimation was (220 - age) x 0.6

I'm 51 and get a value of 101... I find it is impossible to stay below all the time for me. Getting dressed puts me over no matter how careful I am.

I've started wearing a monitor all day and using Endomondo (phone ap) to collate data.

Usually my average HR during my waking hours is 80 - 82 bpm
And I tend to spend about 20 minutes above 100bpm - not all at once obviously: each raise in HR is like a spike up - which could be: on getting up, or changing clothing or having a giggle about something...

If I'm in PEM it spikes even more easily and takes longer to drop down again.

 

[Valentijn]

I'm 36, and my limit works out to about 110 bpm. I set my first alarm for 100, and the 2nd for 110. If I wait til I hit 110 to stop doing something, I'll hit 120 or higher before it starts going back down. Whereas I stay under 110 fairly well if I stop activities when I hit 100.

 

[SOC]

I've had the one-day CPET twice, 4-5 years apart. My AT didn't change one iota during that time although a number of my symptoms improved a bit during that time.

The rough rule of thumb that recommends we stay below 0.6*(220-age) for routine activities fits well with my experience and testing. My AT was closer to 0.75*(220-age) but I could only work at that heart rate very briefly (less than a minute) and rarely if I wanted to avoid crashing. For example, I could go up to my AT climbing a flight of stairs and be okay, but I couldn't do housework keeping my HR just below my AT without crashing.

My guess is that the 0.6*(220-age) number is closer to what our AT would be on the 2nd day of a 2-day CPET. If I stay below 0.6*(220-age) I never crash from exertion. I still crash from mental exertion or infection, which is harder to avoid, however.

FWIW, being able to talk normally during exertion is nowhere close to a reasonable measure for me. If I get breathless during exertion, I'm WAY over my AT. I suspect that's a better measure of the anaerobic boundary for healthy people.

It's important to realize that for many of us keeping our HR below 0.6*(220-age) means we end up doing very, very, very little. For years I couldn't do much more than sit in a recliner to stay under that threshold. Nevertheless, if we want to avoid crashing and have a hope of improving, we need to allow ourselves to be respect our bodies' limits and severely restrict our activity.

On a positive note, I don't believe that extreme activity limitation has to be permanent. These days I'm working 30 hours a week, doing all my ADL's including grocery shopping without a motorized cart, AND walking around the mall Christmas shopping.

 

[Keela Too]

@SOC - Good points.

As you say life is severely restricted by trying to keep HR to the formula.

I'm delighted to hear you have made such fantastic progress as to effectively appear "normal".

Out of interest, how long did you need to strictly monitor HR before you began to improve?

I've reached a point where I don't really ever go into a full on crash now - although when I notice small symptoms (or just note a day I've been more busy) I self-impose extra restrictions the next day or two to avoid a big dip.

This has helped my condition remain pretty stable for a year now, but NO sign of any improvement yet.

I feel it's kinda like rolling dice, I've just got to wait until I finally roll six sixes, and as chance maybe, that could take a very long time.

 

[MeSci]

You might want to check out these threads re ameliorating PEM with baking soda (!) I was amazed to find it does help, has to do with lactic acid buildup. Here's one thread, look at especially at pone's posts:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylfolate-and-mercury-detoxing.30967/page-3

And here's another thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lase-no-pem-after-exercise.34446/#post-536994 which talks about similar things.

I'm beginning to think that keeping track of one's acidity/alkalinity via Ph paper and using sodium bicarbonate accordingly might enable one to stave off crashing. Well, I haven't managed that yet, but did reduce the severity of a crash with baking soda. I have also found, however, that the baking soda pretty much doubles my need for potassium. I have to take a lot of it! I take potassium gluconate and low-sodium V8 which has 900 mg. potassium in an 8 oz. glass. And if you google "baking soda exercise recovery" you'll find a ton of info and it seems to be somewhat applicable to CFS too --

I've been using sodium bicarbonate for two and half years (see my profile). I tried stopping it twice, and quickly deteriorated, so I am going to stay with it for the foreseeable future.

I know some people use urine pH testing as a proxy for blood pH, but I'd like to see some evidence that it is valid before I do that. All sorts of changes occur when blood is filtered to produce urine.

My potassium has always tested normal or high, maybe due to my vegan diet, so I don't need to worry about that.

 

[MeSci]

Thanks for the replies.

So does the 0.6 x (220-age) apply to people with ME the same as it does for people without?

 

[alex3619]

I was wondering if we could collate methods for guessing our anaerobic threshold without undergoing formal testing.

It seems that respiration rate could be one. Ability to talk normally during exertion may be another. Heart rate (variability) is another.

A combination may be the best solution.

Once we have some kind of approximation, we could use a heart rate monitor to avoid going beyond the threshold.

It would be such a useful thing to be able to do, to prevent PEM and consequent worsening of illness, and even facilitate improvement for some.

I think there was a thread like this a few months back. It went for many pages.

 

[MeSci]

I think there was a thread like this a few months back. It went for many pages.

I did do a few searches but didn't find anything that clearly addressed what I wanted to know, at least from a quick glance, but I'm sure you're right!

If anyone finds other relevant threads where the specific info is easy to find, please post the link here. Sometimes I'm too tired to plough through long threads searching for something.

 

[alex3619]

I strongly suspect using bicarb is bad if you have been resting, but great if you have been doing too much. Its a balancing act. @MeSci, how do you cope on bicarb if you have been taking it really easy? Better, worse, the same?

Its in the wee hours of Xmas morning here, so Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it. And happy holidays to everyone else. I am up way too late, so I've been bad, so I am expecting no miracles from Santa today.

 

[MeSci]

I strongly suspect using bicarb is bad if you have been resting, but great if you have been doing too much. Its a balancing act. @MeSci, how do you cope on bicarb if you have been taking it really easy? Better, worse, the same?

I very rarely take it really easy, Alex! I get bored so easily. I rest to some extent (i.e. sit down a lot) after prior exertion and when I am feeling rough.

I haven't noticed any correlation, but there are so many variables. I can usually make tentative correlations between feeling rough and exertion, dietary changes and supplements (i.e. supplements that I am experimenting with and which I stop if they appear to make me feel rough).

I started taking bicarb as a result of the gut acidosis theory (e.g. but not necessarily d-lactic acidosis). I also surmised that as I am a vegan I don't need as much stomach acid as omnivores and especially meat eaters. So it started as a gut alkalising/leaky gut healing regime.

I haven't noticed any effect on physical capacity, but I am generally better in many ways since I started the regime. I think my gut is one of the first things to suffer if I stop the bicarb. It really spoiled my birthday celebration this year as I had a headache, brain fog and weakness all day. That was my second attempt at stopping it, and I'm not planning a third!

 

[Denise]

I was wondering if we could collate methods for guessing our anaerobic threshold without undergoing formal testing.

It seems that respiration rate could be one. Ability to talk normally during exertion may be another. Heart rate (variability) is another.

A combination may be the best solution.

Once we have some kind of approximation, we could use a heart rate monitor to avoid going beyond the threshold.

It would be such a useful thing to be able to do, to prevent PEM and consequent worsening of illness, and even facilitate improvement for some.

You might find some info here:
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsl...ter/2008/September/Glossary-of-exercise-terms

 

[Valentijn]

So does the 0.6 x (220-age) apply to people with ME the same as it does for people without?

That is the ME formula. The formula for healthy people leaves out the "0.6 x" bit, so ours is at 60% of what a healthy person would use.

 

[MeSci]

That is the ME formula. The formula for healthy people leaves out the "0.6 x" bit, so ours is at 60% of what a healthy person would use.

Ah - thank you!

 

[Keela Too]

I think actually the formula is used to denote when the body starts aerobically exercising.... and this is the same for all.

The difference is OUR aerobic systems are broken, so we want to avoid aerobic exercise and so want to aim to stay below this threshold.

Normal people can exercise aerobically - indeed it is desirable, so it is fine for their HRs to exceed this limit. Indeed exercise normally should be ABOVE this threshold for it to be counted as "exercise".

At least that is my understanding.

It is not particularly desirable for anyone to exercise at max capacity however. At least not for long. So no-one should be aiming for 100%

 

[MeSci]

I think actually the formula is used to denote when the body starts aerobically exercising.... and this is the same for all.

The difference is OUR aerobic systems are broken, so we want to avoid aerobic exercise and so want to aim to stay below this threshold.

Normal people can exercise aerobically - indeed it is desirable, so it is fine for their HRs to exceed this limit. Indeed exercise normally should be ABOVE this threshold for it to be counted as "exercise".

At least that is my understanding.

It is not particularly desirable for anyone to exercise at max capacity however. At least not for long. So no-one should be aiming for 100%

Ah yes - that makes sense. I have read that we should stick to doing 60% of what we think we can do, which is essentially saying the same thing.

It would be nice to know some body signs that people have which correspond to reaching 0.6 of the threshold - are there any that people use successfully?

I try to stop when I get any kind of aching, but that is probably too late (and I don't always stop anyway - too determined to do 'just a bit more')!

I'm thinking of getting an HR monitor, but can't afford some of the ones people here recommend. Anyone know if this type would be any use?

I do have a bp monitor that does heart rate, but it's a bit of a palaver to use it just for heart rate, and too bulky to wear continuously.

 

[Valentijn]

@MeSci - That one requires using a chest strap. If you don't mind that, pretty much any heart rate monitor will work and the ones with straps are quite cheap.

 

[Sushi]

It would be nice to know some body signs that people have which correspond to reaching 0.6 of the threshold

For me it is an "empty, hollow" feeling in my chest. As soon as I feel that I absolutely must stop.

I try to stop when I get any kind of aching, but that is probably too late

Yes, probably too late, though you might be able to save the situation with an anti-inflammatory....or not.

I'm thinking of getting an HR monitor, but can't afford some of the ones people here recommend. Anyone know if this type would be any use?

Very important: can you change the battery yourself? There are batteries in both the chest strap and in the watch.

That one requires using a chest strap. If you don't mind that, pretty much any heart rate monitor will work and the ones with straps are quite cheap.

I am fine with the chest strap. The one I have now is comfortable though I had one that was not! I agree, if you can live with the chest strap, (and change the batteries) you would probably be okay with one of the less expensive ones.

Sushi

 

[MeSci]

Thanks, @Valentijn and @Sushi.

I may find chest straps uncomfortable - I dislike anything tight, hence swapping bras for sports tops years ago - bras all hurt - and I prefer nothing when alone at home. I'd probably end up not using it, so might be a bad idea getting one.

Not even keen on anything on my wrist, but can cope better with that if I can see a good reason for it. I wouldn't wear it all the time, but for test periods during different activities to get an idea of how I feel when it goes too high, then see if I can use the bodily sensations to stay below the threshold.

So the wrist-only ones are more expensive then?