Gravity , IBS and chronic fatigue.

[Oliver3]

Nice. To the list of all my food intolerances I can now add gravity on top. Looking foward to the incoming space race with all the crazy people trying to escape Earth's gravity for allergy reasons. /s

This seems a bit like a theory of a doctor who recently watched his first physics YouTube videos.

Since the theory is extremely vague about everything does this theory not apply to all animals? Do birds get ME/CFS whilst fish don't? Or is there some reason it should only apply to animals that expand more in height than in width, do all giraffes have ME/CFS? Aren't we lying flat the whole day without getting better? How does cognitive effort give us PEM? Why should others be able to "train away" their "gravitational-intolerance", but we can't do so even when lying flat?

Since, amongst other things, he suggested CBT for our "gravitational-intolerance" seems like you could test for IBS by just sending a buch of people on a VR-rollercoaster and checking for correlations?

Also, i don't know if you've read the Spiegel piece but he's saying we have " gravity hypervigilance" . That our bodies our misjudging or hyper reacting to gravity, as we do with everything else.
I just think it's an interesting concept and we shouldn't leave any stone unturned

 

[Osaca]

No space makes mitochondria function fragment. When they come back to earth. They suffer something akin to CFS.
So gravity along with mitochondrial fragmentation is causing the illness.
Have you ever noticed that even different weather pressures can effect us? Why?
I'm glad they're scientists out there thinking this creatively

That is simply not true. Claiming that gravity along with mitochondrial fragmentation is causing this illness is simply something we don't know yet. Many things happen when we leave and return to earth. Far more importantly though, saying gravity has an effect on us, is something completely different to claiming that we're hypervigilant to gravity. The one is something we know, whilst the other is just a claim. One might as well argue that we have electromagnetic intolerance.

There are certainly many interesting things we can learn from space travel and as you beautifully pointed out it is awesome that Naviaux is working together with NASA. You're right, we can learn a lot about the mitochondria, but also about other things from this. As we know many astronauts have reactivated EBV, yet they never develop ME/CFS, what can we learn from this? Personally I'm probably a bit biased when it comes to Naviaux solving this, because of his age, not his knowledge. But if he's surrounded great collaborators and former students around him my bias could be worthless.

I don't really understand your weather reference. Gravity is not influenced by weather pressures. As to why we feel sensitive to many things including sounds, light and pressure is something we don't know. At least I don't have any answers for this.

So you believe that we can test for IBS by just sending a buch of people on a VR-rollercoaster and checking for correlations or doing something similar? Because how else would CBT cure us from our graviational intolerance? That truely is an interesting and especially testable concept.

I agree with you, I also love it if scientists think creatively and have completely new concepts and come up with theories nobody has ever thought of before. But to me the IBS-gravity paper doesn't fit that description at all. In my opinion it just makes bold claims without a proper thought behind them, maybe I understand too little. Do you think a physicst would be able to suggest such a poorly thought out theory? Maybe, I'm wrong and this was just a random shower thought by Spiegel and he's since tried to establish a proper theory and even tried to validate it with experiments.

We certainly shouldn't leave any stone unturned, but does that mean we have to turn every stone as soon as it appears?

PS: I'm not trying to attack you on your own thread. I'm generally very curious about any theory and want to have a friendly discussion.

 

[Viala]

Did you watch naviauxs little segment? I think it's interesting he's going to NASA to get funding for mitochondrial disease. And that mitochondria are the cause of so many illnesses.

Yes, the whole idea is incredible to work with NASA, Naviaux always has amazing ideas.
I've found these two articles about mitochondrial dysfunction in astronauts:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/mitochondria-cell-science
https://bioprocessintl.com/manufact...mitochondrial-dysfunction-into-the-spotlight/

I wonder if they get this disfunction because they spend a lot time in no gravity environment, or because of other factors, like radiation for example, and gravity is only what is making it worse when they go back.
Gravity vs CFS idea reminds me one episode of The Expanse with a Belter on Earth.

 

[Osaca]

Yes, the whole idea is incredible to work with NASA, Naviaux always has amazing ideas.
I've found these two articles about mitochondrial dysfunction in astronauts:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/mitochondria-cell-science
https://bioprocessintl.com/manufact...mitochondrial-dysfunction-into-the-spotlight/

I wonder if they get this disfunction because they spend a lot time in no gravity environment, or because of other factors, like radiation for example, and gravity is only what is making it worse when they go back.
Gravity vs CFS idea reminds me one episode of The Expanse with a Belter on Earth.

Is there a reason why we would rule out reactivated viruses like EBV as a cause for this? I must admit that I haven't read studies on mitochondrial dysfunction in astronauts. If it were the case there's of course still the question why they do reactivate, but that is probably quite hard to find out given all the irreproducible stressors present.

 

[Oliver3]

Is there a reason why we would rule out reactivated viruses like EBV as a cause for this? I must admit that I haven't read studies on mitochondrial dysfunction in astronauts. If it were the case there's of course still the question why they do reactivate, but that is probably quite hard to find out given all the irreproducible stressors present.

It's when they come back to earth that they really feel the problems. When gravity rehits them.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I just find it interesting.
Added to that naviaux is saying that mitochondrial failure is present in so many illnesses. Just the fact he's working with NASA says one of two things, or both. He's after the funding and spin off results NASA can offer, or he's realised that gravity is part of the problem here. I'm hopeful that it's just the mitochondria that's fragmented and once that's restored, gravity is not an issue.
When I first got ill with this many moons ago, I thought I could swim my way to feeling better. Foolish I know.
But obviously, suspended in water I felt better.
When I got out after being suspended, I could feel gravity. I could feel it's pull on my tissue. That's how sensitive we are I think

 

[Oliver3]

That is simply not true. Claiming that gravity along with mitochondrial fragmentation is causing this illness is simply something we don't know yet. Many things happen when we leave and return to earth. Far more importantly though, saying gravity has an effect on us, is something completely different to claiming that we're hypervigilant to gravity. The one is something we know, whilst the other is just a claim. One might as well argue that we have electromagnetic intolerance.

There are certainly many interesting things we can learn from space travel and as you beautifully pointed out it is awesome that Naviaux is working together with NASA. You're right, we can learn a lot about the mitochondria, but also about other things from this. As we know many astronauts have reactivated EBV, yet they never develop ME/CFS, what can we learn from this? Personally I'm probably a bit biased when it comes to Naviaux solving this, because of his age, not his knowledge. But if he's surrounded great collaborators and former students around him my bias could be worthless.

I don't really understand your weather reference. Gravity is not influenced by weather pressures. As to why we feel sensitive to many things including sounds, light and pressure is something we don't know. At least I don't have any answers for this.

So you believe that we can test for IBS by just sending a buch of people on a VR-rollercoaster and checking for correlations or doing something similar? Because how else would CBT cure us from our graviational intolerance? That truely is an interesting and especially testable concept.

I agree with you, I also love it if scientists think creatively and have completely new concepts and come up with theories nobody has ever thought of before. But to me the IBS-gravity paper doesn't fit that description at all. In my opinion it just makes bold claims without a proper thought behind them, maybe I understand too little. Do you think a physicst would be able to suggest such a poorly thought out theory? Maybe, I'm wrong and this was just a random shower thought by Spiegel and he's since tried to establish a proper theory and even tried to validate it with experiments.

We certainly shouldn't leave any stone unturned, but does that mean we have to turn every stone as soon as it appears?

PS: I'm not trying to attack you on your own thread. I'm generally very curious about any theory and want to have a friendly discussion.

The weather thing. It seems pressure effects the water movement in us it's another stressor.
No it's fine. I know it seems stupid but I don't think it is.
What's interesting is what's happening to us happens to astronauts after being in space for a limited amount of time.
The unifying problems the astronauts has all came from mitochondrial dysfunction.
It could be anything that's causing it. But when they come back to earth they're a wreck for six months or so.
They've been studying this for a couple of decades and it seems to be a burgeoning field so maybe as a by product, as those articles suggest, there will be some help for us

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I always come back to eds..it's the bedrock of this illness. Imm certain of it

I remain convinced connective tissue and collagen are being adversely affected by something related to our post viral or ongoing viral state.

Our brain stems have been potentially affected by gravity effects. I see no reason that the intestines, hanging and suspended in a space, held by various ligaments and tissues, all of which could be affected by gravity just like our brain stems potentially have been.

so in that case EDS would for me just be another symptom

I think it's therefore possible to experience digestive challenges that might be influenced by things like how is your Bile Duct holding up? Maybe that isn't a gravity problem, but another type of physics challenge.

How does cognitive effort give us PEM?

brain uses tons of energy. I remember when I used to have insomnia, and I'd be literally starving in bed.

My gut is a common location for me to lose energy and digestion gets lousy fast.

Do birds get ME/CFS whilst fish don't? Or is there some reason it should only apply to animals that expand more in height than in width, do all giraffes have ME/CFS?

Sure. Its called the Hermit Thrush didn't make it thru the cold night last November.

I think part of our illness requires time. Time to deteriorate. How long did it take these fingerprints to disappear? My brain stem to sink? My head, wanting to fall off the top of my spine.

Animals live very different amounts of time, and a "chronically fatigued animal" isn't likely to survive if any predators exist, or work is required to persist.

Like the octopus story in the movie. That octopus developed the whole suite of sickness behaviors, as it holed up to recover from losing an arm.

And the studies which induce fatigue in animals...thats not OUR fatigue.

 

[Osaca]

@Rufous McKinney I agree with many of the things you say here, but none of this is “gravitational hypervigilance”, but simply natural effects of gravity. In that case gravity is neither the cause nor the explanation of our disease. And for my case, I find the wording or study of gravity in this scenario slightly unusual (does the force pressure not exist in gravitonal free environments as well?). We have to find out why our connective could be destroyed. If a plane crashes into the ground, because an engine goes bust, no one blames gravity or tries to understand if the plane is gravitational hypervigilant or why the passenger got killed by gravity.
Gravity is a priori part of our natural assumptions, we don't have to mention it, we have to figure out why the engine went bust.

 

[Oliver3]

You don't know that tho. We are NOT the same as normies physichally. There's something wrong with the tissue that makes gravities pull on us notable.
I understand what you're saying, it's not root cause potentially, but I think our weakness is effected by gravity

 

[JES]

But what are we going to do about that? If gravity is the root cause, then we are completely screwed, since we live on planet earth, where gravity is a thing. I don't see much point in this research as it doesn't lead to any treatments.

If the root cause isn't gravity, then investigate the downstream issue. The paper is very non-specific about what the actual downstream issue could be. It mentions the body over-predicting the g-forces, which unfortunately sounds a lot like the theories of the BPS model folks (aka throw more CBT/GET for every problem). Weak connective tissue? EDS? Then focus on research how treat that. Gravity is part of the equation we all have to live it. There is no way in eliminating that.

It's similar as with dysautonomia or POTS. I would love to live with lower gravity as that would mean blood wouldn't pool in my legs and I could withstand standing for longer, but the cause of dysautonomia isn't gravity.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

It mentions the body over-predicting the g-forces,

that part of the hypothesis I found the least interesting....

But I can see adding Gravity Challenge to the list of aggravations to digestion.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I would love to live with lower gravity as that would mean blood wouldn't pool in my legs and I could withstand standing for longer, but the cause of dysautonomia isn't gravity.

there was a Sci Fi movie that did a really great job on this Gravity issue. What was that? Earth person lands on new planet with much lower gravity. They avoided digestion issues.

John Carter.

 

[Oliver3]

But what are we going to do about that? If gravity is the root cause, then we are completely screwed, since we live on planet earth, where gravity is a thing. I don't see much point in this research as it doesn't lead to any treatments.

If the root cause isn't gravity, then investigate the downstream issue. The paper is very non-specific about what the actual downstream issue could be. It mentions the body over-predicting the g-forces, which unfortunately sounds a lot like the theories of the BPS model folks (aka throw more CBT/GET for every problem). Weak connective tissue? EDS? Then focus on research how treat that. Gravity is part of the equation we all have to live it. There is no way in eliminating that.

It's similar as with dysautonomia or POTS. I would love to live with lower gravity as that would mean blood wouldn't pool in my legs and I could withstand standing for longer, but the cause of dysautonomia isn't gravity.

I think it will lead to treatment. Understanding a problem in it's entirety is surely what we need to do.
I wish there was more research into tissue type as that's the issue. The propensity for PTSD , sensitivity IBS, all cones from that.
But, stem cell research, regenerative medicine, crispr technology to augment our genes, improving or restrengthening mitochondria will all help. Like naviaux says, so many illnesses begin at the mitochondrial level. If gravity is part of our problem, we have to restrengthen our bodies.
Anyway, I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Interesting to see naviaux is exploring space and it's effects on mitochondria. I'm hoping this has knock on effects.

 

[Methyl90]

You can seek out a chiropractor who does joint/spinal decompression and see if that helps. I also wanted to ask if you had any small benefits from oral methylene blue (25/50mcg)...it would be a sign that the mitochondria have a defect between fusion and fission.

 

[beatsmyth]

Have you ever noticed that even different weather pressures can effect us? Why?

The gut is a sensitive organ, and many functions in the body are changed and felt when there is a change in systematic air pressure systems. Also I healed my own and my sister's IBS-Like issues using a 6 week on, 2 weeks off, then 6 weeks on again daily stomach fat subcutaneous injection of a peptide called LL-37. It s permanently healed us both and my sister's issues were so bad she was seeing 3 different specialists and had the whole camera inspection done into her stomach. Nothing they prescribed her worked, except going gluten free and then additionally doing the LL-37 (6 week on, 2 off, 6 on) therapy

 

[Oliver3]

Wow....I know nothing of peptides but that's amazing.

 

[beatsmyth]

Wow....I know nothing of peptides but that's amazing.

Yes, LL-37 is absolutely amazing. If I can go back a decade in time, I would have become a Naturopath and would be using peptides in my practice to help absolve the suffering people go through. Please look into it, there are budding communities on reddit and FB that also have healed their gut issues using this

 

[Oliver3]

Yes, LL-37 is absolutely amazing. If I can go back a decade in time, I would have become a Naturopath and would be using peptides in my practice to help absolve the suffering people go through. Please look into it, there are budding communities on reddit and FB that also have healed their gut issues using this

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will look into it for sure