glutathione, b12 and lithium

[oh_noes]

Another "this may have been asked before but I'm going to make a new thread about it because there may be a hundred long and convoluted others which confuse the heck out of me" thread from me . If apologies are due then I'll leave a u-haul's worth amount of them on the doorstep .

I'm really confused, and (as always, because my anxiety is always high) concerned about the relationship of b12 to glutatione and lithium. At the moment it's all a bit much for me to get my head around. To the best of my recollections:
~ Rich VanK wrote in one of his papers something to the effect without sufficient glutathione, b12 will get turned into a toxin;
~ Amy Yasko expressed the need for lithium in order to transport b12 into cells.

Is there a general consensus on the accuracy of these claims? Furthermore, what if, for whatever reason, taking glutathione and/or lithium are not an option? Is there a way around it? If you take b12 without glutathione and/or lithium are you risking further damage?

Many thanks in advance

 

[adreno]

You should be fine taking B12 on its own.

 

[oh_noes]

Thanks @adreno Please don't mistake me here, but why do you say that? Are glutathione and/or lithium not required?

It would be fantastic if I could get some more replies. It's not that I'm sat here just expecting everyone to do the work for me; I try to do the research and, due to high anxiety levels and intense, constant somnolescence and brain fog, I find I get overwhelmed, confused, and even more stressed out very easily. It can be nigh on impossible sometimes to do anything when you feel like you're literally asleep, or dosed up on sleeping pills. I appreciate others may struggle with these things, too, and I guess it might seem lazy and insolent for me to say something that may seem like it amounts to "well you can change the rules for me because I have autism blah blah blah". But that's not what I'm saying, and nor is it an excuse for me to have others wait on me. I am doing the research; but it's just too difficult for me to fully comprehend right now. There may be many threads with the same or very similar questions, and I do read some of them, but they often just confuse and overwhelm me. I'm asking kindly if people would be so kind as to help.

I'm sorry if I've put anyone's backs up.

 

[adreno]

No, glutathione and lithium are not required for taking b12. There is no evidence of that anywhere.

 

[oh_noes]

No, glutathione and lithium are not required for taking b12. There is no evidence of that anywhere.

I may have misinterpreted things but didn't Rich VanK say that without gluathione b12 becomes a toxin? Amy Yasko's stance - which I'm aware is not always agreed with - is that lithium transports b12 into the cells, and that, furthermore, without adequate lithium b12 will further deplete lithium levels. I'm not claiming accuracy on either of these arguments - if I've even interpreted them correctly - but simply relaying what I think they're positing.

 

[adreno]

You will produce your own glutathione when you lift the methylation block. Your glutathione might drop initially when you start with the b12/folate, though. Supplemental glutathione is not a part of Richs protocol.

As for what Yasko says, her claims stand for themselves. I haven't seen the evidence to support it. But you can try lithium if you believe it's necessary.

 

[oh_noes]

Thanks @adreno.

 

[Freddd]

I may have misinterpreted things but didn't Rich VanK say that without gluathione b12 becomes a toxin? Amy Yasko's stance - which I'm aware is not always agreed with - is that lithium transports b12 into the cells, and that, furthermore, without adequate lithium b12 will further deplete lithium levels. I'm not claiming accuracy on either of these arguments - if I've even interpreted them correctly - but simply relaying what I think they're positing.

Hi Oh_noes,

Glutathione in too high a dose, whatever that is, flushes active b12s from the body and brain but not the mitochondria in hours apparently inducing methyltrap in hours and neurological damage in a month or less. Glutathione generation requires both methylation start and ATP start, otherwise it can be deadlocked. I agree with Adreno, b12 doesn't need lithium to get b12 into cells. However, that doesn't mean that you might not find it beneficial. Glutathione is "too dangerous to take in any way" according to one researcher I talked with.

 

[L'engle]

A small amount of lithium orotate (total 25mg over 3 weeks, only one dose of 5mg, the rest 2.5mg or less) has given me thyroid suppression that has so far lasted 2 months after stopping lithium. Iodine, selenium did not help. Apparently lithium can induce permanent hypothyroidism in some people who are subject to autoimmune hypothyroidism. So it is risky.

 

[L'engle]

@oh_noes

If you want to try a lithium amount that is in mcg instead of mg, San Pellegrino mineral water has a measureable amount of lithium. The wiki page for San Pellegrino lists how much. It might be a way to see how you do with a very small increase in lithium. When my thyroid was still inflammaed from the lithium orotate supplement a glass of san pellegrino was enough to make it slightly inflammed again, so the amount is significant but much smaller than in a supplement. I always felt better after drinking san pellegrino water at other times, so it may be because it was supplying a very small amount of lithium. Just a thought.

Also, the mineral water bottle itself doesn't list the lithium content, its only on the wiki page.

 

[stridor]

@oh_noes
I have also read that Li+ helps to move B12 into the cells and this is something that I am interested in as I have TCN2++ and have some difficulties in that area. Li+ has been shown to offer neuroprotection and one means that it may do this is be helping to recycle glutathione. Various mood stabilizers share this ability (whatever else they do).

Those of us with methylation problems will have a greater tendency to accumulate toxins and this includes mercury. Mercury toxicity leads to low lithium levels and many if not most of us take a small amount daily.

I am not discounting @L'engle experience but any thyroid suppression at the doses we take is rare. It is not particularly common at Bipolar doses but certainly does happen and they take 1000+ mg a day. (I was on 1200 mg daily for a year). My thyroid quit when I removed my mercury fillings unsafely - along with my adrenals. brad

 

[L'engle]

I sure hope it's rare! It was honestly surprising to me that such a small amount could give me problems that last months. Hopefully others do not encounter the same issue but it is good to know what the risks are.

It does help B12 transport, I'm pretty sure of that. I got effects from much lower amounts of b12 once I had lithium in my system than I had needed before that. However my thyroid is now so sensitive that a 1500mcg b12 swallowed, not absorbed, has enough thyroid stimulating effect to cause some neck pain for me. As well I took 2mg of enzymatic therapy sublingual b12 a few weeks after having stopped the lithium and had b12 benefits for a full month after taking it, as well as very high potassium need for that entire month. Previously up to 15mg of ET b12 would lose effect after 2-3 days.

I would hope that my thyroid experience is unique. Be aware though if you have any sensations in the front of your neck after taking it to stop completely. I decreased my amount instead of stopping completely and the result has been a winter of living around my thyroid, wondering if I have made myself permanently worse.

I did do my homework before taking it and found references to thyroid issues, but researching further after the fact led me to articles that said the effect can be permanent.

Each person has to assess the risk for themselves but I am reporting what has happened to me so that people can be warned of the worst case.

Also it's probably safer for guys. Women are much more likely to have thyroid problems.

@stridor. Sorry to hear the filling removal had a bad effect on your thyroid and adrenals!

 

[Freddd]

I sure hope it's rare! It was honestly surprising to me that such a small amount could give me problems that last months. Hopefully others do not encounter the same issue but it is good to know what the risks are.

It does help B12 transport, I'm pretty sure of that. I got effects from much lower amounts of b12 once I had lithium in my system than I had needed before that. However my thyroid is now so sensitive that a 1500mcg b12 swallowed, not absorbed, has enough thyroid stimulating effect to cause some neck pain for me. As well I took 2mg of enzymatic therapy sublingual b12 a few weeks after having stopped the lithium and had b12 benefits for a full month after taking it, as well as very high potassium need for that entire month. Previously up to 15mg of ET b12 would lose effect after 2-3 days.

I would hope that my thyroid experience is unique. Be aware though if you have any sensations in the front of your neck after taking it to stop completely. I decreased my amount instead of stopping completely and the result has been a winter of living around my thyroid, wondering if I have made myself permanently worse.

I did do my homework before taking it and found references to thyroid issues, but researching further after the fact led me to articles that said the effect can be permanent.

Each person has to assess the risk for themselves but I am reporting what has happened to me so that people can be warned of the worst case.

Also it's probably safer for guys. Women are much more likely to have thyroid problems.

@stridor. Sorry to hear the filling removal had a bad effect on your thyroid and adrenals!

Hi Stridor,

As well I took 2mg of enzymatic therapy sublingual b12 a few weeks after having stopped the lithium and had b12 benefits for a full month after taking it, as well as very high potassium need for that entire month. Previously up to 15mg of ET b12 would lose effect after 2-3 days.


Now this is interesting. Let me give a description, a composite description from several studies on the serum half life of b12.

From a b12 supplement, sublingual or injected, there is a surge of serum cobalamin. The level goes up 200pg/ml per mcg absorbed. The studies done, largely in the 50's and 60's intent on establishing the serum halflife, some specific studies were done. Now they mention the serum halflifes incidental to the main focus of the study.

Basically from an IM injection the serum halflife starts at between 20 and 50 minutes. At 12 hours it averages 4 hours halflife. From 12 to 48 hours the average serum halflife is about 12.9 hours. A couple of more considerations, 98-99% of dosed B12 is excreted in 24-48 hours and the halflife returns to supplemented rate in 2 weeks. Now that was done over decades where some people would have been taking folic acid as well as eating folates. I haven't see a recent pharmacokinetic study with the purpose of documenting the pharmacokinetics.

However, other information, from series of thousands of urine colorimetry views of myself and others approximating the same, folate condition, folic acid, folinic acid, NAC, glutathione and Methylfolate all can dramatically affect retention of b12 and no doubt serum halflife of b12 very differently.

And maybe it is the lithium?
so now you have me wondering if there are other factors that affect b12 serum half life.

 

[L'engle]

@Freddd. Yes, it was very surprising to me. What actually happened is about two weeks after completely stopping the lithium, I took 2 mg of ET mb12 dissolved in the mouth, had probably normal b12 related potassium need for a couple of days and then took 2 more mg of dissolved ET mb12 as this would be the normal amount of time that it would have worn off and I feel very bad if I don't take b12 again. After this second set of b12 I didn't take anymore because of the thyroid inflammation it caused, a realized a few days later that the b12 benefits had not worn off and that the potassium need was overwhelming. This was before christmas. The high potassium need continued through January until the 22-24, last week.

I ended up having high potassium symptoms as the potassium need dropped off but I was afraid to go to bed without potassium loading. It took me a couple of days to realize it was finally wearing off and to start loading some sodium to balance it out.

Yesterday I took a swallowed dose of doctor's best methylcobalamin, 1500mcg, as a test of whether I could take a weak dose of b12. It inflammed my thyroid to a small but noticeable degree and provided a small amount of b12 effect but also seemed to help ease off the extra potassium (tingling, weakness, blood vessel problems). I'm waiting a day or two to try any more b12.

I think the lithium I took is still effecting my system. A supplement amount is too much for me. What I would like to establish in a while after I am through this a bit more is whether a trace amount such as in mineral water can be enough help b12 trransport without hurting my thyroid.

Others might be able to handle the amount that is in a lithium orotate supplement but I would advise caution.

Also I don't know how much the mineral water I drank on christmas had an effect on keeping things going, or if only the lithium I took weeks before the b12 dose had an affect. I have more specific dates in my calendar if you would like me to send them by PM.

 

[oh_noes]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'll get back to you in a bit

@L'engle (hi fellow canuck , from a displaced Torontonian in the UK), what are the symptoms of hyperkalemia for you? I'm confused, because I have symptoms that could be hyper or hypokalemia. I'm taking potassium (gluconate - which perhaps I shouldn't as the name suggests it's a sugar and thus may feed candida - but it's the highest concentration of all the supplements), but I barely get 35% RDA, even when I take coconut water. As my form of hypothyroidism is indeed the auto-immune form, I think I'll have to give the lithium a miss for the sake of doing my thyroid even more permanent damage, even though, having autism, I'm likely to be low in lithium anyway.

 

[L'engle]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'll get back to you in a bit

@L'engle (hi fellow canuck , from a displaced Torontonian in the UK), what are the symptoms of hyperkalemia for you? I'm confused, because I have symptoms that could be hyper or hypokalemia. I'm taking potassium (gluconate - which perhaps I shouldn't as the name suggests it's a sugar and thus may feed candida - but it's the highest concentration of all the supplements), but I barely get 35% RDA, even when I take coconut water. As my form of hypothyroidism is indeed the auto-immune form, I think I'll have to give the lithium a miss for the sake of doing my thyroid even more permanent damage, even though, having autism, I'm likely to be low in lithium anyway.

Hi . It took me a while to figuee it out because I was also low in magnesium and that caused cramps in the legs that were less sharp than hypokalemia spasms but all over the back of the calf muscle. I thought these were low potassium so kept taking potassium.

I feel very weird with high potassium, tingling extremities, odd blood vessel sensations in my head, feeling 'sick' in a different way than usual. For me it doesn't cause the sharp leg spikes like low potassium. Chest cramps, and a sort of achy feeling. Mainly I sorted it out by realizing it got worse if I had a potassium source and better if I had sodium, but that isn't very safe, I realize myself. I actual figured it out right after I ate a potassium source and then was worried about what I had just consumed tipping over a balance into dangerous. Luckily it didn't!

I had some strange blood vessel constricting in my hand and a slightly painful numb feeling there with high potassium that I don't get with low. 'Neurological' feelings and blood vessel sensations I guess, where low potassium causes the leg spasms.

Sorry this is not very concise but I'm actually having trouble sorting out for myself which symptoms are being caused by what! I also have vitamin d low right now so that is in the symptom mix as well.

If you already know you have autoimmune thyroid then I would probably stay away from the lithium orotate supplements. Maybe a glass of San Pellegrino water would be a thing to try and see how/if it affects anything.

It's so confusing, isn't it?!

 

[aquariusgirl]

@stridor: what would you advise with regard to adrenal& thyroid supplementation to someone who is chelating?

 

[stridor]

Hi @aquariusgirl
I hope that you have a sense of humour and can appreciate the irony of asking someone who failed to retain endocrine function for advice? (tee-hee) As far as thyroid goes, I didn't try. My working diagnosis at that time was Brittle Bipolar Disorder Type 2, Rapid-Cycling, Mixed States. I read about thyroid supplementation helping with this type of Bipolar and it dovetailed with a idea that I had.
It goes like this. If central thyroid issues can operate independently of peripheral, then someone could have "hypothyroid of the brain" at yet post normal blood work.
If mercury is stored in the astrocytes, then the astrocytes can be expected to change functionally.
Since the astrocytes are doing the lion's share of T4 to T3 conversion for the neurons then this could change.
Since the astrocytes are producing the lion's share of glutathione for the neurons, this could also change.
As Bipolar symptoms are associated with low glutathione (among other variables) and certain forms can be treated with thyroid meds, then in the face of mercury toxicity my Mad as a Hatter syndrome could be driven by sick astrocytes and that the best course of action is to supplement and circumvent. So I started thyroid meds and that was the end of any Bipolar symptoms. There is a free thesis in here for someone

On the other hand, I fought tooth and nail for my adrenals. Let me just say that I have 5 ++ or +- for the corticotropin releasing hormone receptor and 7 ++ for the glucocorticoid receptor. This suggests that I would not have a normal stress response and that I would need higher cortisol levels than average which would place greater demands on my adrenals from the get-go.
Rat studies have shown that chronic Hg exposure will take out the adrenals. How this manifests is that the rats will have normal a.m./p.m. levels but these levels will tank if they are forced to swim (pun intentional). At autopsy, the adrenal glands are bleeding. So, Hg and chelating mercury presents challenges for sure.
The #1 thing to do for the adrenals is to go low and slow. This is why many of us choose to go with the cutler Protocol. So we have control. If you feel sick, take a break.
Lots and lots of vitamin C. The adrenals and retinas need the most, although the exact role in the adrenals has yet to be elicited, I believe. But it is there for a reason. Liposomal C is a great way to go and I put a recipe somewhere for this. general discussion?
Ashwaghandha is another product some use.
The main approach is with ACE = adrenal cortical extract. This product puts elements into circulation so that the hypothalamus will think that everything is fine in adrenal-land and quite making demands on it. given a chance, the hope is that the adrenals will be able to get up off of their knees to fight another day.
I did all of these things and even spent about $6000 on IV ACE and Vit C without success. In the end, my Dr told me that I was 10 years too late figuring the Hg out. The Drs can share some of the blame for this one - I told them about my Hg exposures.
Anyway, gotta go. Hope this helps. brad

 

[renski]

@Learner1 and anyone:

Ben Lynch talks about how if someone has:
- sick cells/deficient in healthy mitochondria, low glutathione, oxidised cell membranes, low potassium etc that B12 will make that person worse. How does that work, you have to raise glutathione first, heal cells? Or remove metals first?

 

[stridor]

@Learner1 and anyone:

Ben Lynch talks about how if someone has:
- sick cells/deficient in healthy mitochondria, low glutathione, oxidised cell membranes, low potassium etc that B12 will make that person worse. How does that work, you have to raise glutathione first, heal cells? Or remove metals first?

These sorts of blanket statements by Drs or whoever, can prove to be stumbling blocks for recovery. There are many here who while in the depths of CFS, and with all that it entails - including sick mitochondria, took a big step forward with B12. They generally need to do a lot more towards recovery (as you say, remove metal for those with that particular problem).

But supplying mB12 and adenosylcobalamin were an important aspect of overall recovery for these people. In the end, this sort of thing is very individualistic. And this is why there is initial disappointment for those who come to this site looking for specific recipes to recovery. I have been following Freddds Protocol for 7 years now but my specifics will be different than others in terms of amounts and add-ons.

In terms of glutathione, anything you can do in terms of antioxidants to recycle it will become an important aspect to recovery. Lots of Vitamin C, consider liposomal C. Fat solubles like Vit E and A to compliment and the rest is up to you. Many can not tolerate NAC until further along in recovery and there are completing theories on why this may be. There is a study showing that it can increase Hg in the brains of rats. Whether this occurs in humans with more sophisticated barriers or not.....well, the bottom line is that I support this idea based on my n=1 experience.

I followed the Cutler Protocol to deal with metal toxicity but was a little late getting on the bandwagon. I lost adrenal, thyroid and testosterone production....metal toxicity is tough on the endocrine system. In 2011, my wife was helping me to stand up. So with metal toxicity, parasites and infections, plus functional B12 deficiency, I found my way out. You will figure it out. You are already on the right track by being here.